Tips for Fly-Fishing Backpacking Trips, with Derek Bargaehr

Tom Rosenbauer (00:00) well, my guest today is Derek Barger and Derek and I have been kind of pen pals over email and telephone calls for a number of years. Derek was a podcast listener and was noticing that my audio quality wasn't so good and Derek

was nice enough to send me one of his Vanguard audio microphones, which I've been using for what is it four years now Derek or so. Yeah, yeah, and it and I just love this microphone and it's been great and. Well, we were we're talking about, you know, we talk about fishing occasionally and Derek does a lot of backpacking for for trout in Alpine Lakes and creeks and.

Derek Bargaehr (00:28) I think so, yeah, it's been close to that.

Tom Rosenbauer (00:46) I get a lot of questions about that and requests for a podcast. And I don't, I don't do much backpacking, uh, because mainly because it takes too much time away from fishing. Now I know I could get into some, some good spots, but you know, the setting up the tents and the cooking and, and, uh, you know, all that stuff, uh, getting a fire started. I don't want to waste any fishing time. I, would generally prefer to hike five hours and fish and hike five hours back.

than backpack, but Derek, you do a lot of backpacking and, you do some great stuff and you sent me some pictures of some of the things you did and you do it every year, right?

Derek Bargaehr (01:31) Yeah, I wish I did it more, but since I moved out east, I make my annual pilgrimage back to the High Sierra in California. And I do at least one backpacking trip a year there, and then I also do some here on the east when I can.

Tom Rosenbauer (01:39) Right.

huh. So let's start with, let's start with preparing, you know, ⁓ other than, other than stuff you would want for wilderness hiking, you know, you're going to want to a compass and matches and flashlight and a tent and sleeping bag and all this stuff. ⁓ how do you, what do you do for fishing gear? Cause you're obviously weight limited, right?

Derek Bargaehr (02:00) Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, I talk about this with a lot of people that are interested in it, like weight matters. The first time you go backpacking, whether you're fishing or not, you always take too much stuff. Not really a problem when I was 20 and I could carry like a six pack of beer into the wilderness with me or whatever. now that I'm in my late thirties and the joints. My joints might be might be as old as yours. It's a family trait, unfortunately. And and

Tom Rosenbauer (02:19) Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

⁓ wow. I see. I feel so sorry for you.

⁓

Derek Bargaehr (02:37) And now that I'm older, I have really tried to pare down my weight and you really want to keep that weight. The general rules, like 20 to 25 % of your body weight, if I remember right. So you want to keep it under 40 pounds with food, with water, with everything. So weight really, really matters. And you think about, you know, the trips I do aren't crazy on the mileage. We go for a week. We probably cover 50 miles or so.

Tom Rosenbauer (02:53) Okay.

Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (03:04) Which for a week, you know, that's less than 10 miles a day, but it adds up to like a hundred and twenty thousand steps so take a pound and multiply that by a hundred and twenty thousand and you're not always going, you know level you're going up and down and It really adds up and you notice when the first year I really invested in dropping the weight of my pack I was like, this is so much more fun because my shoulders don't hurt and my leg my feet don't hurt as much and I can hike further and faster and

You know, also take things I want that were luxuries before like my ukulele and things like that. but yeah, weight definitely matters. So being minimalist, when it comes to your fishing gears also important. like, instead of like a sling pack or a chest pack, you use your lanyard or for me, I have a little tiny day pack for when we base camp. It's like this little, very lightweight cloth only kind of pack. And that's

Tom Rosenbauer (03:37) Ha ha ha ha!

Yeah. Right.

Derek Bargaehr (03:59) where all my fishing gear goes when I'm fishing is just in that little day pack. So don't not bring. I used to do that as well. Yeah. Yep. My brother uses a lanyard and he loves that. He started doing the lanyard thing. He's like, why didn't I do this before? Yeah, but as far as as I remember, somebody asked me, should I bring my waders? And I'm like, I don't know. Do you like carrying five pounds that far for that long? You know.

Tom Rosenbauer (04:02) Okay, right. Or you could do it in your pockets too, right? If you have a... Uh-huh, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (04:25) And

even lightweight waders are pretty heavy. So I don't take waders at all. Obviously it's so dependent on where you're going this season, how far you're going, but I don't take waders Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (04:34) Sure, yeah.

So you don't take waders. How do you, you're obviously gonna do some wading, so you're wet wading. Do you take wading shoes or do you have a, do you have a hiking boot that you use for wading?

Derek Bargaehr (04:42) you

Mm-hmm.

You and I actually talked about this and I was looking at maybe some wading boots that could also be hiking boots and the problem is, man, those wading boots are heavy and not super comfortable for five to 10 miles, you know. So what I ended up doing actually is I did a lot of research on this and tried a couple different things and ended up landing on something called kayaking shoes. And they are they're like water shoes with some extra tread on them. ⁓

Tom Rosenbauer (05:03) They are.

Uh-huh.

Hmm.

Derek Bargaehr (05:19) but they're also bendy like water shoes. bend with your foot. And then I just wear quick dry pants, know, standard hiking pants. Most of those are a quick dry material. ⁓ And then also an extra pair of wool socks and you put those on a rock when you're done to dry them out or on your pack while you're hiking and they'll dry out just fine. Those are my fishing socks. You don't want to hike with wet feet. That's a recipe for blisters. ⁓ yeah, and that is my waiting setup. And if you need a waiting staff,

Tom Rosenbauer (05:28) Right.

Right.

Yeah, yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (05:46) for ⁓ a creek that's a little slippery. Plenty of sticks laying around, man. Or just use your hiking poles. You don't need ⁓ a weighting staff, per se. But that helps cut down, you know, if I took weighting boots and waders and a weighting staff and a sling pack, what is that, 10, 15 pounds? know, that's a lot. And you really feel it over the miles, let me tell you. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (05:57) Yeah.

Feels like it's been days.

Yeah, yeah. OK.

So as far as as far as other do dads, know, we we fly fishers always carry lots of stuff and you obviously have to limit that stuff that you're carrying. So what are what are the essentials that you like? Do you take dry fly powder and do you take snips?

Derek Bargaehr (06:19) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I actually have a list. It's funny. I'm such a I'm such an engineer I have an Excel spreadsheet that I use every time I pack for these trips ⁓ It's my bill of material so to speak but ⁓ I take so here's one thing that you wouldn't expect I always take two rods and the reason is pretty simple There's no fly shop at 10,000 feet if you break your rod midway through your hosed So at least bringing an extra tip But I take my rods. Obviously. I have a three weight for for creeks

Tom Rosenbauer (06:42) Hahaha

Yep.

Yeah, I know.

Derek Bargaehr (07:02) and I have a five weight for lakes. ⁓ And I know some guys who are big streamer guys that like six weights and intermediate line, but I just take a reel with floating line, a single reel with five weight line on it because that three weight will still cast it. And in those small creeks, you taught me this, overline. If you overline, you're gonna be able to deliver flies better. Half the time, the casts are.

Tom Rosenbauer (07:04) Okay.

Yeah ⁓

Derek Bargaehr (07:28) practically leader only or you're doing bow and arrow casts or roll casts or things like that. So in these really small high Sierra creeks at least ⁓ there's not a lot of overhead casting, you know. So I take the one reel making it a reliable reel. I did I didn't want to mention rod protection. I got this tip from a backpacking group actually that I'm a part of that also has fly fishers in it. Fluorescent light guards you get them at Home Depot.

Tom Rosenbauer (07:40) Sure, yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (07:53) for like five bucks for the T12 fluorescent, you know, the big fluorescent tubes like the one behind me and the, I know your listeners can't see this, but we're staring at the fluorescent lights of my office. And those fluorescent tubes are just the right size for a four piece fly rod. You cut them down to the right size. You put foam in the caps and you glue one cap on. Then the other cap becomes how you access it. And those weigh about an ounce and a half as opposed to the, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (08:16) Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Fluorescent

tubes.

Derek Bargaehr (08:19) The guards for

the tubes, not the tubes themselves. Yes, not the, yeah, glass is a little fragile, yeah. Yeah. The guards for the tubes, and that cuts down your weight a lot and also provides a level of protection so you don't catch the tip on a tree branch while you're hiking and snap the tip of your rod.

Tom Rosenbauer (08:22) The guards. Okay, the guards. Okay, so the guards for Yeah, okay. Yeah.

Do you just lash your rods to the side of your pack?

Derek Bargaehr (08:45) Yeah, they go in one of the kind of bottle pockets, side pockets of the back and then the load compression straps become the lash for the side. So they just go in one side of my pack, usually with some other duty ads as well. So, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (09:00) Okay, and

one real because because you're just using a floating line and it's seldom that a real malfunctions or breaks very seldom. Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (09:08) Yeah, I just get a ⁓

ideally a metal reel, not a plastic one, a reliable reel that's also easy to take apart and clean if it gets dropped and gets sand in it or whatever. ⁓ You know, I think I know a guy as well that works for, yeah, works for this great company that sells some awesome reels.

Tom Rosenbauer (09:20) I know where you can get some of those.

Yeah.

I was going to ask you about a tip it. So you obviously take a few spools of tip it. An extra leader, an extra leader, maybe.

Derek Bargaehr (09:37) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I

take a couple extra leaders usually. Usually I take a three pack of leaders and end up using one liter the whole time. I might switch out leaders but the thing about these high alpine areas is one, they don't get a lot of pressure. ⁓ And two, the fish tend to be very opportunistic because you're in headwaters. There's not a lot of nutrients in these waters for the most part, so.

Tom Rosenbauer (09:48) Right. Okay.

Right?

Derek Bargaehr (10:06) They're looking up a lot for stuff that's falling into the creek as opposed to searching for bugs, subsurface. There are exceptions to that, but where I tend to go in the West, it tends to be a granite bottom that just doesn't leach a lot of nutrients into the water. All that being said, that means that the fish are not really easy to spook most of the time. They are not, quote, tippet shy or leader shy. So I take three X or four X leaders depending on what I've got at the moment.

Usually 3x, I like to do 3x. And then for tippet, I do 1x for streamers and 4x for everything else. I don't take any other tippet. Cause they're just, you know, it makes you feel like a real good fischer when you're a fly fisher when you're ⁓ when you're up there. And then I come back to Pennsylvania and the fish are smarter and sneakier and spookier. And I, I've been flogging the water with bad casting up in the mountains and suddenly those bad habits catch up with me, you know? So yeah, just, ⁓

3x or 4x leaders, 1x for streamers, 4x for everything else. Now, obviously depends on what your target is. There are, you know, places where you can backpack into steelhead waters and stuff like that, and you're gonna want a different setup. But, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (11:06) short.

Yeah, no, we're talking about we're talking

about, you know, high alpine trout trout waters here. You would you wouldn't you wouldn't throw in a spool of six X in case you see a midge hatch on those lakes.

Derek Bargaehr (11:16) Gotcha. Yeah.

Even when there's a midge hatch, the thing about the lakes up there is it's kind of like British Columbia where the midges get huge. The midges can be size 10 and size 12 as adults. We had a midge hatch at one of the lakes we were at a couple years ago and it honestly sounded like we were standing under a swarm of bees and they were covering everything, our tents and the ground and they were huge. They didn't look like midges until you got up close to them, but they were probably size 12.

Tom Rosenbauer (11:25) Yeah.

⁓ okay, okay. ⁓

Derek Bargaehr (11:53) every single one of them. So those like, coronamid bomber type flies and you can go with bigger midges and also like I said they're opportunistic. I think you could throw a bear hook in some of these lakes and you'd still catch quite a few fish to be honest with you.

Tom Rosenbauer (12:05) Well, we don't want to we don't want to tell people that. So. Did have you ever considered taking a 10 car rod because I know 10 car rods are popular with backpackers, you don't have a real, you know, the fly assortment is usually limited if you're a super 10 car aficionado. Have you ever taken one with you?

Derek Bargaehr (12:08) Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I have thought about it. I don't have any Tinkara rods. I've always thought about doing it, but I know guys that do take Tinkara rods into the Sierra and have a great time and catch a lot of fish. The one thing they complain about is on lakes, your casting is limited and they find that sometimes they're fishing to cruisers that are just beyond where they can cast to, which can be really frustrating. know, very rarely do I need to throw a 50 or

Tom Rosenbauer (12:31) Yep.

Right, yeah. Yeah, I would.

Derek Bargaehr (12:53) 50 foot plus cast, but when I do it's nice to be able to do it.

Tom Rosenbauer (12:57) Yeah, I would think I would think in the in the small streams would be beautiful, fantastic. But yeah, in the lakes. Yeah, because they're not always going to be that close to shore. So.

Derek Bargaehr (13:02) Perfect.

No, no, we were

fishing a lake this last year that we were going for 20 inch goldens and I'm pretty sure I hooked into one but didn't end up landing it. And we hooked into some other big over a foot goldens which up that high at 11,000 feet is a big deal. And we were definitely having to cast 40, 50 feet every time. You could see them out there cruising because the water is super clear. You could see these dark submarines cruising around. But with a Tinkara rod, I wouldn't have had a

Tom Rosenbauer (13:26) Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay. Okay. So if you're concentrating on streams, probably okay if you're going to fish lakes, maybe take a Kentucky tank car as a backup or for a small stream, because they don't weigh much. Right? They don't they don't. Yeah, yeah. So just throw one in as a as a backup rod or something. Okay.

Derek Bargaehr (13:46) Yeah.

No. And they compact so easy. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. The other thing I take

is polyliters because these lakes in these alpine bowls tend some of them tend to be really deep. We fished a lake two years ago where it was basically straight down from the edges and I had four and six inch sinking polyliters fortunately and you had to we were doing this countdown you'd still have to wait 30 seconds to a minute before you started bringing it back in.

Tom Rosenbauer (14:03) Okay.

Derek Bargaehr (14:20) to be able to start taking bottom and catching some of these Lahontan cutthroats that were in this lake. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (14:25) huh. Yeah. And it's you,

you're just taking a floating line. So you got the sinking poly leaders so can get down a little bit. Okay. Okay.

Derek Bargaehr (14:29) Thank

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and then the

other stuff is pretty basic. So I have four steps. I like taking four steps for the health of the trout. Same reason I take a net. The lightest net I found is the measure net. I'm sure you've seen those around that have a rubber. I wanted a rubber mesh netting, but the small measure net is about seven ounces, I think. And then my brother uses one of those handy pack nets, which get really big and are great for big fish.

Tom Rosenbauer (14:38) Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (14:56) but they can be kind of floppy and I was always worried about putting them back in. I don't know if you've ever seen the handy-pack nets, but they kind of fold in this very strange way. They use like hoop steel and you have to fold them into like fourth to get it back in the case. And I was always worried that I wouldn't be able to do it very easily or one-handed. So yeah, but I do take a net and I take a multi-tool.

Tom Rosenbauer (15:04) No.

Really, see, I would have

left a net behind because you can always land a fish, know, trap them against your leg or whatever.

Derek Bargaehr (15:25) Yeah,

like to let them, usually we catch and release, although we do every once in while keep a couple for dinner that are not native. Brookies in particular out in the high Sierra can be a problem in some lakes. But I like to let them go. I try and minimize the handling so the forceps in the net help. And then also we like to take photos too. So being able to keep them in the net.

Tom Rosenbauer (15:37) Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (15:50) up

to the surface for a quick photo and drop them back down without stressing the fish out too much. know, they're living creatures and I try and respect them because they bring me so much joy. So try and handle them as best I can. You know, ⁓ also a multi-tool, which I use anyway for other stuff around, around backpacking. So that becomes your nippers. I do take indicators, although I almost never, I don't think I've, I think I've used indicators once. And I take split shot as well for the same reason. I do take floatent.

Tom Rosenbauer (16:00) Okay, yep.

Yeah. Right.

Derek Bargaehr (16:17) And a lightweight fly box. They have these fly boxes magnetic fly boxes made of foam that are very lightweight And I just take one small fly box and that's all I take

Tom Rosenbauer (16:24) Yep, yep. Now fly selection.

So I mean, a lot of these Alpine lakes are fairly similar, right? It's not like one's going to have different hatches than others. I think that based on what I've seen in Alpine lakes, you can get away with the same flies and creeks. So what's your fly selection look like?

Derek Bargaehr (16:45) Okay.

Yeah, that's, you know, it's funny. I joke that the fly selection is more for me than the fish because I love tying and I love trying new patterns and really take your favorite flies, take attractor patterns and generalist patterns and you'll be fine. Like I said, out west in these high lakes, there's a short feeding season. So some of these lakes are only going to see six months of ice off.

Tom Rosenbauer (16:59) Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (17:09) ⁓ or even less. In 2023, I was out in late July and everything above 10,000 feet was frozen in the Southern Sierra because that was their snow year where they had like 300 % of regular snow. It was bonkers. They also tend to be headwaters. Like I said, it's a granite bottom, so there's not a lot of nutrients in the creek. So it's kind of like small creeks where they tend to be opportunistic and you can throw dry flies and they'll almost always take them, which for me is one of my favorite things to do anyway.

Tom Rosenbauer (17:15) wow, wow.

Right. Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (17:37) I know a guy that takes 12 parachute atoms and that's all he takes and he probably does just as good as I do any given time. I'll give you a quick example. ⁓ In 2021, I was at a lake further north in the Sierra and it was a brook trout lake and the brook trout lakes there in the Sierra tend to not grow big fish. They grow a lot of skinny overpopulated small fish and I was throwing

Tom Rosenbauer (17:41) ⁓ huh.

Derek Bargaehr (18:00) a red parachute, more or less, let's call it, right? And I caught this trout that was literally stuffed to the gills that was just vomiting up mayfly, mayfly, a-mergers. And they were all like a dark green color. They were smaller than my fly. He was so full that he couldn't fit anything else in his stomach. And he still took my fly that looked absolutely nothing like what he was clearly eaten on.

Tom Rosenbauer (18:21) Thank

Derek Bargaehr (18:23) So they are true opportunists most of the time. Now there are exceptions to that. The terrestrial patches can be really important up there. I tend to go in the mid to late summer and the hoppers are really important, the Sierra hoppers. And they tend to have like a yellow or orange wing. They can be two inches long. They can get even longer and larger down in the valleys, but up high they tend to stay pretty small. we fished a couple of lakes this year.

where we actually had some pretty selective trout, both small and large trout, that were kind of turning their nose up at everything we were throwing, except for the hoppers. And they loved the hoppers, so that's what we were using. Flying ants is another one, like size 14, 16 flying ants. The wind can bring them, can come upslope and dump them into lakes. And then large midge larvae, like I talked about. I have, you know, 16 and 18 and 20 midges in my box and...

Tom Rosenbauer (19:10) Aha.

Derek Bargaehr (19:18) I don't know if I've ever really thrown one on because a size 12 Harzir or Chan's Coranamid Bomber also works really really well under a hopper as a hopper dropper. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (19:32) Okay. And do

you ever, I mean, a lot of these lakes, I understand were sterile, historically sterile and did not have trout in them. Do you ever get to an alpine lake and realize that, there's no fish here?

Derek Bargaehr (19:38) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, it does happen. Fortunately, backpackers will share information between each other and they'll find fishless lakes. Sometimes you think they're fishless and they're actually the ones with the really big fish. ⁓ Now, it's rare that you find these lakes with Goldilocks conditions where they have just enough spawning water to keep a sustained population.

Tom Rosenbauer (19:58) Aha.

Derek Bargaehr (20:09) but not enough that they overpopulate the lake, which is what tends to happen if they have enough spawning habitat and enough food. So you get good food conditions, limited spawning water, and that's when you can get 20-inch fish up high. ⁓ But those lakes, because the population's small, you really have to go searching around for where the fish tend to be that particular day. Going back to that lake we fishing this year,

Tom Rosenbauer (20:15) Yeah.

Okay.

Derek Bargaehr (20:33) We did find them after about an hour of walking the shore and casting to different places and keeping an eye out. We found there must have been a dozen fish in this one inlet that we just kept fishing to. And then the next day we went back and they weren't there. So the next morning they were somewhere else and we had to go find them again, you know, so they will move around the lake depending on, I don't know, light conditions, food, where the food is. I don't know exactly what's causing it, but they like to migrate a bit. So you got to go find them. But there are sterile lakes up there.

Tom Rosenbauer (20:46) Hahaha.

Derek Bargaehr (20:59) on fishless lakes. They're also making more lakes fishless in the high Sierra at least, particularly in Yosemite where they've introduced a lot of trout and it's caused problems for some of the other native species. They are gill netting a lot of these lakes to return them to a fishless state to let the yellow legged mountain frog and other species have some room to be again. Yeah. And

Tom Rosenbauer (21:21) Right, yeah, I've heard about that.

Derek Bargaehr (21:24) Most of the lakes up there, honestly, if there was moving or still water up there from the 1800s up until the late 1900s, they stocked it at some point, probably. It's just a question of whether it could sustain the fish. And most of the time it could. So ⁓ the basin that we were just in was historically fishless because it's basically straight up to get into the thing. There were too many barriers for them to go to get into this basin. But and it's on the eastern side of the Sierra.

Tom Rosenbauer (21:35) Yeah.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (21:54) But, you know, they stocked a bunch of fish in there and now there's only a couple lakes there that are sterile lakes and everything else is teeming with goldens and brookies.

Tom Rosenbauer (22:03) Hmm. Maybe I should. Maybe I should take up backpacking again. And, know, there's I mean, we haven't really talked about the the the pleasures of backpacking for trout and we should, know, typical me, I'm more interested in the nuts and bolts, but we should talk about why you would want to carry all this stuff on your back to to catch some little trout.

Derek Bargaehr (22:04) Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

Mm-mm.

Yeah, you know, it's a question I get asked occasionally because they go, wait, you don't keep them? I'm like, no, I'm not going to backpack 20 pounds of fish that are now at room temperature or worse down a mountain. And, you know, it does get philosophical a little bit. So allow me to wax philosophical for just a second. But OK, fair enough. Hopefully your listeners don't start snoring. ⁓

Tom Rosenbauer (22:38) You

Please do.

No,

I don't get philosophical enough. So I need to, I need to rely on other people to do that.

Derek Bargaehr (22:59) Okay, fair enough.

Well, I'll start with one. So the Japanese in the 1980s, came up with this. Well, it had been practiced before that, but it actually became a Japanese policy. It's called shinrin-yoku, which literally means forest bathing. And they figured out that it's healthy to be outside. I think we all really rediscovered this with an exclamation point during the pandemic as well, because when you're trapped inside, suddenly outside really feels good. And we all discovered

Tom Rosenbauer (23:15) Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (23:32) ⁓ then how lovely ⁓ it was to be outside and alone. And so just getting out into the forest for five, six days, getting away from technology, not having cell service, not having social media, not having work emails. It's such a recharge. it's so, every time I come back, I go, I gotta do this again, like tomorrow. You know, I wish, I dearly wish I could, but. ⁓

Tom Rosenbauer (23:52) Yeah. Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (23:56) Unfortunately, that's not the way life works. ⁓ And if you like fishing alone, know, most people, Tom, you say this all the time, most people don't want to walk. You know, most people don't want to walk to fish. They want to. And there's so much drive up water in the Sierra, whether it be the Owens River or the Merced River or all this stuff in the valleys and the foothills that people just aren't willing to go walk for fishing. And the fishing does tend to get better up there once again.

unpressured fish. And not only that, but we always say that trout, you know, don't live in ugly places. And I don't know if it's ever truer than when you're standing at 11,000 feet on a bluebird day, casting the rising trout. It's 65 degrees, 70 degrees up there. And you've brought all the stuff with you. had a delicious, dehydrated breakfast, and now you're fishing. And you are literally the only person that you

Tom Rosenbauer (24:42) Hahaha

Derek Bargaehr (24:47) that you can see, that you can hear anything. It's, or you and your group, you know? So the solitude's amazing. I fished 18 mile in New York a few weeks ago because, oh yeah, my buddies took me there and it was nuts to butts fishing, as they say. You they just can't, you can't cast. It was crazy. And I was like, who enjoys, I mean.

Tom Rosenbauer (24:53) Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hahaha! ⁓

Derek Bargaehr (25:15) I'm not trying to yuck anybody's yum. The brown trout were huge, but it wasn't, I didn't enjoy it in the same way. I would rather fish for a six inch wild or, you know, native fish that has never seen a fly and is living like it did before, you know, before we even got here, you know? And the solitude, mean, read John Muir's My First Summer in the Sierra or Thoreau's Walden.

Tom Rosenbauer (25:18) Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (25:41) better yet do it while you're backpacking because then it really sinks in. that, yeah, that's true. That's Kindle, yeah, or on your phone. ⁓ Yeah, and adventure, right? Like we all have these bucket list trips, Patagonia and the Kenai Peninsula and all these places we wanna go to fish. Like Danny K said, if life's a great big canvas, you throw all the paint on that you can. And...

Tom Rosenbauer (25:44) Yeah, but then you got to carry a book, right? ⁓ maybe a Ken, maybe on a Ken, maybe a Kindle. Kindle weighs less. Yeah. ⁓

Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (26:06) It's just part of the adventure of living and being alive for a limited time and going, I could spend my day in the office repairing another mic or building another mic and making an extra buck. Or I could spend my day out in the great wild, the public lands that we are so lucky to have in the United States, especially in the West, the public lands out there. You could hike the spine of the Sierra and pretty much never run into private land if you wanted.

Tom Rosenbauer (26:09) Yeah.

Yeah.

huh.

Yeah. Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (26:33) you know, ⁓ just

all the way through. And it's like a 480 mile mountain range, I think. So we're so blessed by this ability to go traverse and explore in this country. And I could do 10 lifetimes in this year and not see everything. And I would if I had the option, if I'm being honest with you.

Tom Rosenbauer (26:47) Yeah.

And

there's so many other Alpine areas that have similar situations and all through the Rockies, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana. you know, people complain about Montana getting crowded, but I guarantee if you hike up above tree line in Montana, you're not going to see many anglers either.

Derek Bargaehr (26:53) Mm-hmm.

Montana.

Mm-hmm. this basin I was in last this year is a pretty popular basin and Yeah, but you know, it's a popular basin for the Sierra is huge and I we've done trips where once we get From the trailhead we don't see anybody until we get back like nobody for a week Yeah, they're Not even other hikers it is and especially we've been doing more of what we call what we call cross-country Which is you get off the trail and you're just wandering

Tom Rosenbauer (27:12) Yeah, it's California, right?

Yeah. Really? Not even other hikers? Wow.

Derek Bargaehr (27:37) through the mountains with a heading and a topo map. And ⁓ that's when you really don't see anybody. But you know, I think there was a stretch of three days on this week trip where we didn't see another person. And it's a pretty popular place. We went cross country, we went off trail to get to this larger Golden Lake. And it's one that's pretty hard to get to and nobody else wanted to do it because there's easier, even within the backpacking community, know, there's easier places to fish. So.

Tom Rosenbauer (27:37) ⁓ cool.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (28:05) people stay down there.

Tom Rosenbauer (28:09) ⁓ it sounds great. I'm going to have to I'm to have to do an adventure. So let's get off. Let's get off subject a little bit off the fly fishing subject and tell me and tell me what ⁓ what tent and backpack and sleeping pad you use and you know, just yeah. OK.

Derek Bargaehr (28:10) It's magical.

why not?

Yeah, yeah, the big three.

Yeah, I mean, I honestly there's whole podcasts just dedicated to backpacking gear, right? Backpacking is a lot like fly fishing where it's easy to accumulate a lot of gear and get obsessed with the gear and and Which is a lot of fun. Don't get me wrong I use a tent from a little cottage company called Durston. That's become quite popular now I think they're the most popular tent on the Pacific Crest Trail And it actually doesn't use tent poles. It uses your trekking poles your hiking poles as the tent poles

Tom Rosenbauer (28:32) Yeah, sure.

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

⁓

Derek Bargaehr (28:54) So it's much lighter. think my tints not the pro version, which is made out of, the pro version is made out of Dyneema and the single person version of that tent weighs under a pound, which is just insane. Mine weighs about two pounds. ⁓ Durston, D-U-R-S-T-O-N, Durston. Yeah, Dan Durston is the founder. It's a Canadian company. He's a really great small business owner and makes just truly awesome tints.

Tom Rosenbauer (29:03) Wow. Is Thurston, Thurston is the name of it?

Okay.

Derek Bargaehr (29:21) So me and my brother, he has the two person, I have the one person. The two person's great when you get caught in a thunderstorm and you're sitting in the tent for four or five hours at a time. It's nice to be able to hang out and stretch out a little bit and play guitar together and stuff like that when you're sitting waiting out the hailstorm. And then as far as the pack, I use one from a company called Granite Gear. It's the Crown II. And the Crown III is really cool because the...

Tom Rosenbauer (29:24) huh.

Derek Bargaehr (29:43) what they call the brain of the pack, the little top lid comes off and becomes a day pack, fanny pack actually. Which is really, really neat. I got the Crown II on sale and I've been using that. It's pretty lightweight, but REI, ⁓ even their house gear is also fantastic. Now Orvis doesn't make any backpacking packs, I don't think. Is that correct? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then the sleeping pad I use is from a company called Nemo. I don't remember the name of it.

Tom Rosenbauer (29:48) nice.

No, no, we don't we don't dabble in backpacking at all.

Derek Bargaehr (30:10) But it's quite comfortable and then I use instead of a sleeping bag. I went to a sleeping quilt From a company called Hammock gear and they make ⁓ they make these quilts that kind of turn into a sleeping bag But they tend to be lighter lighter weight because they don't use the back because when you're laying down on the ground it compresses all that insulation and it's not really effective anyway, so The sleeping pad becomes your insulation that air gap and whatever else they put in there

Tom Rosenbauer (30:32) Right, yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (30:37) ⁓ And then the sleeping bag is just a quilt and then also it's nice because if it's a warmer night if you're at a lower elevation or in a different place you just unbutton the bottom and it just becomes a blanket ⁓ but you know it'll I think mine is a as a 20 degree survival rating and 30 degree comfort if I remember right so ⁓ You know up in the high Sierra at high elevations we get mid to high 30s at night at times So it's nice to sleep warm

Tom Rosenbauer (30:37) huh. Okay.

huh. Okay.

Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (31:05) and not be cold all night. So that's what I use for the big three. And ⁓ we do take bear cans as well. That's an important thing. Just fed bears a dead bear and you don't want them getting your food and ruining your trip either. But also you don't want to habituate them. So we take a bear can by a company called Bear Vault. And that's great because it also is a great ⁓ camp seat and it is a great laundry bucket mid-ray through the week when you're starting to get kind of ripe. So it...

Tom Rosenbauer (31:30) Uh-huh.

Derek Bargaehr (31:31) Yeah, the bear can is one I encourage all backpackers to take if you're going into a place with black bears because they're, black bears are weenies, but they really want that calorie bomb that is your food. yeah. I haven't done any backpacking in grizzly country, so.

Tom Rosenbauer (31:35) Mmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And okay.

So you don't take bear spray with you. ⁓ and well, like for cooking, how do you save weight and, still take stuff that you can, you can cook in?

Derek Bargaehr (31:51) No, I don't take bear spray, no.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, like, you know, there's the mountain house meals and things like that, like the pre-prepared freeze dried meals, and I've never liked those. So what we do is we dehydrate our own food most of the time. ⁓ My brother makes an absolutely amazing Pad Thai. That's like the highlight of the trip every year, dehydrated Pad Thai. And I make things like chicken tikka masala, bean burritos. We do trout one night a lot of the time, like I said. I did biscuits and gravy this year for the first time. That turned out really good.

Tom Rosenbauer (32:13) huh. Okay.

⁓ huh. Hmm.

Derek Bargaehr (32:31) And that's all dehydrated to take all the water away.

Tom Rosenbauer (32:31) So you dehydrate them at home,

huh?

Derek Bargaehr (32:34) Mm-hmm right before we go and then I vacuum seal them and ⁓ and take them up and that saves a lot of space and a lot of weight because you're not taking that water weight ⁓ And then as far as cooking it's the camp stoves right with the little canister The little isobutane canister. I think I use the 8 ounce one most of the time, which is like the mid mid-sized Size of the canister and it's a screw on stove that screws on the top. My stove weighs about 3 ounces

Tom Rosenbauer (32:37) ⁓

Right, yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (32:59) ⁓ And then I have an aluminum cook set and I made my own little heat diffuser out of the top of a number 10 like produce, you know, when they they can veggies and stuff like that. I made a heat diffuser for when we want to get a little more heat, heat dispersion when you're cooking trout so that the middle's not black and the outsides aren't raw, you know, because you get that hot spot in the middle from the isobutane stove. So, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (32:59) my god.

Okay. huh.

Yep.

Derek Bargaehr (33:23) But even my you know, my my base weight now base weight is without food and water I think I'm at about fifteen and a half pounds and that includes my fishing gear so I

Tom Rosenbauer (33:32) Wow. And I assume

that you do use a water filter and not, you don't take water, right? You use a water filtration device.

Derek Bargaehr (33:38) Yeah, you use a there's

so many water sources up in the high Sierra. ⁓ And you know, if you're going to be fishing, there's going to be water, obviously. So ⁓ I just use water bottles on my pack instead of the bladder. The bottles tend to be a little white lighter. But ⁓ yeah, we have a we have a filter by a company called MSR that has a dirty bag and a clean bag. And it's actually a hanging filter. So you fill up this four liter bag at the at the lake and then it

Tom Rosenbauer (33:42) Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Yep. Yep.

Derek Bargaehr (34:06) does all the work for you so you don't have to pump it at the lake. Which is great if you run into the mosquito hatch, not having to sit at the lake and get swarmed while you're pumping everybody's water. ⁓ So that's always a low point in the hike, is finding the mosquito hatch for sure. But I have some otos on my back looking like a terrain map, just finding the wrong place and the mosquitoes just bite right through your clothes, they don't care.

Tom Rosenbauer (34:09) Uh-huh.

yeah.

Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (34:30) And you can be wearing DEET. You can have permethrin under clothes. They'll bite you and die. They don't mind. They're vicious little boogers. But yeah, the water filter is important, especially if you're near the Pacific Crest Trail, because a lot of people come through. Not all of them are following the proper protocols for waste disposal and ⁓ things like that. So, you know, some of the lakes we go to.

Tom Rosenbauer (34:35) Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (34:53) and some of the streams we fish, I'd say the majority of them, because they're these first order streams that are just fed by snowmelt. You can probably drink right out of them and be absolutely fine. But we do it. Yeah, it's no fun to get sick halfway through the trip and have to cancel it. Yeah, exactly. But Giardia, as like a two or three week time before you start experiencing symptoms. So even with Giardia, you'd still feel fine on the trip, but you really don't want to deal with that when you get back home.

Tom Rosenbauer (35:04) Yeah.

No, no, you don't want to take a chance. You don't want to take a chance.

No.

Derek Bargaehr (35:22) And like I said, the Pacific Crest

Trail and these major, the John Muir Trail in the Sierra at least, when you're on those, they're like super highways. I try and avoid them at all costs. But those are the places, if I'm near there, I'm definitely filtering because I don't trust the hikers to be honest, to be pooping where they're supposed to poop or, you know, so yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (35:35) Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

All right. So that kind of gives me, it gives me and a lot of other people, a pretty good, pretty good packing list and a plan for, uh, doing some backpacking for trout next season.

Derek Bargaehr (35:54) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Did you want to talk a little bit? I had one other thing which was planning because a lot of people don't know how to get into it. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (36:05) Yeah, yeah, let's, yeah,

was just gonna talk about planning a route and planning where to go.

Derek Bargaehr (36:14) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean the nice thing is most places in the US have backpacking and even if you're not fishing for trout there's places where you can fish for for other species as well and the Exis Hill Country and things like that. But ⁓ my first thing is just if you're a first-timer Plug into the backpacking community locally go to REI put your name in a hat, you know Get on a forum. There's plenty of for backpacking forums or Facebook groups or things like that

Tom Rosenbauer (36:23) Sure. Yeah. Yep.

Derek Bargaehr (36:39) You know, it's just like fly fishing. There's people who love to teach and love to have a companion. So they'll, you know, they'll lend you their gear if they have some extra gear to see if you like it. ⁓ I'm lucky my brother was a wilderness guide for years in Zion National Park, as well as the Yosemite area. So he is quite experienced. So I always felt like I was in really good hands ⁓ when I was first starting and learning. Because, you know, it's kind of intimidating to be, I'm going to be out there a week. What if I get lost or lose my food or what have you, you know?

Tom Rosenbauer (37:06) Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (37:07) Being with somebody experienced the first time is really nice. ⁓ As far as where, I'm always gonna plug the High Sierra because it's just this mountain that holds these many fond memories from my childhood for me. ⁓ But ⁓ the Poconos out near me in Pennsylvania now is another place that you can go backpacking and fly fishing. And as far as route planning, like I said, talk to your local backpacking group because there will be some...

Tom Rosenbauer (37:10) Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Derek Bargaehr (37:31) ⁓ anglers in that group as well and they will be able to point you in the right direction to get you started. And then once you're planning, I try and plan for no more than 10 miles a day. Five's better. Like you said, it's more fun to be fishing. ⁓ Honestly, some of the trips I've done, we've passed 20 or 30 bodies of water that have fish in them and we only fish seven or eight because you don't have the time, you know. So...

Tom Rosenbauer (37:41) Okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

⁓ huh. Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (37:55) I, you know, less is better because you want to fish more. You want to relax more. You want to enjoy more. I'm not going to yuck anybody's yum. There's some people who just like to go for distance. Good on them. But ⁓ for me, I like to, the more walking I do, the less fishing I'm doing. So I'm like you in that regard. I want to stop and hang out and catch some fish and enjoy myself. Also, you're to want to plan around like the seasonal weather and fishing conditions. I like to go in late July if I can in the Sierra because it's kind of before fire season, but

Tom Rosenbauer (38:14) Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (38:22) you know, the melt has happened, the streams and lakes are at a reasonable level, the fish are biting. It is dependent on the snow that year, how quickly it melts, how much snow they got. And that's going to be the case in most of these alpine areas. ⁓ So keeping an eye on the snow conditions on the gauges, on the river gauges and things like that is going to be really helpful. A couple things I use. So for the Sierra, I use a group called High Sierra Topics. It's a forum online. You have to join.

Tom Rosenbauer (38:33) Yeah, yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (38:48) ⁓ And get approved, but it's a great resource. They have a fishing only section And all the members are super helpful as well as ⁓ for mapping it onyx and ⁓ Gaia and all these hunting apps that also have the trails, you know And I use a free one called cal topo and that's free. The app is free And I think you can have up to five private maps for free. I pay for it now because I appreciate what they do but You can map

Tom Rosenbauer (39:01) Yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (39:13) Everything and have it on your phone. So even if you have no cell reception you have your map on your phone then a paper map is a backup so Yeah, I What you want to get out of it kind of determines how you plan it, right? What do you want to get out of backpacking and fly fishing for me? I try and make a different goal every year I think I was telling you this next year we're gonna fish for all three species of the golden trout complex in their native habitat on one

Tom Rosenbauer (39:37) Yeah, that sounds pretty cool.

Derek Bargaehr (39:41) And then a couple years ago, I tried to go for a Sierra Grand Slam, which is catching four species in one day. We caught five species total on the trip, but unfortunately we only got up to three on a particular day. We had two days to try and nail it. One we got rained out and one we got skunked at one lake. So what are you gonna do? Yeah, it was a lot, but you know, planning these little goals for the trip ⁓ just brings more enjoyment to it. Even for me, I like to tie local patterns. So when I backpack in the Poconos, I try and tie, you know,

Tom Rosenbauer (39:56) That's still pretty good. Still pretty good.

Derek Bargaehr (40:10) the broadhead, what is it called? The broadhead caddis? It's like a tent wing caddis. ⁓ The Henryville special, thank you, yes, yeah. So I like to tie local patterns ⁓ that are historic for the region, because it adds something to the fishing experience for me. ⁓ yeah, as far as planning goes, know, if...

Tom Rosenbauer (40:16) The Henryville? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah, yeah.

Derek Bargaehr (40:34) I can send you a list of these links if you want to put them in the show notes or anything like that. I'm happy to send you the links for some of this stuff. And there plenty of books on it too if you're old school, but the internet's a magical place when it comes to information. It's got some other issues, but as far as information goes, you've to find the right places, but can be useful. Yep.

Tom Rosenbauer (40:42) Okay.

Yeah, it sure is.

Yeah.

Yep.

All right, Derek. Well, I want to thank you for taking the time today and being such a good friend and for increasing the quality of my audio over the years. And I really, really appreciate getting you here on the podcast and exploring the subject with us.

Derek Bargaehr (41:06) Yeah.

Thanks for having me, man. If you don't mind, I'd love to make a plug for my Trout Unlimited chapter. Yeah, Perky Omen Valley, Trout Unlimited. We're trying to make the West Branch of the Perky Omen Creek what Valley Creek is to the Philly area and how they kind of really saved and preserve that in the 80s. You can read about their whole thing, Living Waters by Owen D. Owens, but we're doing a lot of conservation work, a lot of stream.

Tom Rosenbauer (41:17) Yeah, go ahead. Absolutely.

Derek Bargaehr (41:40) repair and riparian work. And so I've actually been doing presentations on backpacking and fly fishing. Some of them are like trip experiences. Some of them are, you know, the how and stuff like that for the local chapters. I also do it via zoom. So if anybody wants me to do one, I'm happy to do it. And the funds that you pay me go directly towards our conservation efforts. So yeah, that's just my little plug there. We are we are working hard. We're doing another quarter mile.

Tom Rosenbauer (41:52) Right.

Derek Bargaehr (42:05) stretch of stream. We're hoping to break ground on that next year and we're hoping to connect a game lands all the way down to this reservoir on the west branch of the Perkeoman Creek with high quality trout habitat that is protected by law with all these different townships and accessible and good cold water conservation.

Tom Rosenbauer (42:22) That's nice. And you know, if you do have any interest, I have seen Derek's PowerPoint presentation and it's really cool. So if you're interested, just send an email to the podcast mailbox, podcast at orvis.com and I'll get you in touch with Derek's probably the best way to do it.

Derek Bargaehr (42:39) Yeah, and Derek at VanguardAudioLabs.com too, if you have any questions about backpacking and want to talk shop. I'm always looking for an excuse to not do work and talk about backpacking and fly fishing, so.

Tom Rosenbauer (42:53) Or if you need a new microphone. All right, Derek. Well, thanks so much. And I'm sure I will talk to you soon.

Derek Bargaehr (43:00) Thanks very much, Tom.