How To Catch Permit On Top, with RA Beattie

Tom Rosenbauer (00:06): Well, my guest today is filmmaker and angler R.A. Beate and R.A. you have been around this business for a long time. Name some of the films that you've done, especially the award winners over the past 20 years.

RA (00:25): Well you're gonna put my memory to the test so I think I was just doing a count I think we're at about 35 that we've done over the years I think some of my favorites I watched the piece with John Geerac the other day the Arctic and that piece has to be 15 years old but just love the piece the Arctic and then we've done we've done you know a lot about jungle angling we've done a lot about saltwater trout fishing I mean you name it we've

Tom Rosenbauer (00:33): Wow.

RA (00:54): We've really kind of gone after it. But yeah, lately we've done a lot of work around permit. Yeah, so that's been interesting. I think we have a new saying in the organization where we don't want to make any more films about permit or steelhead, but we keep doing it, so.

Tom Rosenbauer (00:59): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, people about the, and I'm sorry, I forgot the name of the video, was very heartwarming and compelling about the guy who is deaf.

RA (01:29): the silent spotter. So yeah, so we were in the Cancun airport coming back from the shoot and a friend of ours came up to us who owns a fishing lodge called the X flats, Jesse. And he said, Hey, I've got this amazing story. want you guys to come down and check it out. We're catching permit on floating crabs. And it's so amazing. And I was interested ⁓ for sure. But then he said, yeah, we have this amazing character in it in one of these guides and he was born deaf.

Tom Rosenbauer (01:30): Silent spotter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

RA (01:59): And immediately I was more interested in that than the permit. And ⁓ I was like, well, how does that work? mean, ⁓ catching a permit is such a team sport ⁓ and so challenging as it is. And communication is so integral to being successful. So I'm like, how does that work if you're deaf? And so yeah, that short film really kind of does a deep dive into that fishery, but also kind of the day-to-day of that really awesome angler and guide, Tommy, who's again, born totally deaf.

Tom Rosenbauer (02:03): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's a beautiful film and you've got you got a new one in the in the IF4 this year, right?

RA (02:35): We do. We're Gluttons for Punishment. So we went back to New Mexico and did another permanent film this year ⁓ with chef David Chang and a bunch of our friends. so, yeah, so we just don't, we don't learn lessons, I guess. We just keep trying to punish ourselves with these, hardest fish on the planet.

Tom Rosenbauer (02:50): Yeah. Well, we all we all do that. We all bang our heads against the wall, don't we? We're we're fly fishing for stuff that's tough to catch in a difficult way. So.

RA (03:02): 100 % 100 % yeah. Yeah, what I think you get to a point where like that's that's kind of the nice thing about you know being an angler and getting older is you're like, okay, well, how can I make this a little bit more challenging a little bit more challenging? You got to kind of keep keep pushing yourself right testing the limits. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (03:15): Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. So ⁓ we're here today to talk about catching permit on on basically dry flies right on on floating crabs. And I have I've caught several permit, but I've never certainly never caught one on a floating fly. Lucky to catch one on a sinking fly. ⁓ Tell us about tell us about you know, where does it happen? And and why and how you fish for them?

RA (03:42): Yeah. Yeah, I mean, think it's a really interesting thing that's emerged over the last, let's just call it the last decade. I was thinking this morning about when I caught my first permit and I think it was 30 years ago, which is hard to believe. But yeah, mean, historically with a fly, there was very specific ways to target a permit. And that was usually with a sinking crab or a fly that's going to... get down into the middle column or something like that. ⁓ I think for a lot of us that don't live in the tropics, we don't get to go permit fishing very often. And so when we do, you want to try to use the best technique and whatever is going to work, have the best track record. And so that would be throwing something that's going to get down to where the fish are. So I think the idea of throwing a floating crab at permit was just kind of bizarre and hard to wrap your head around at the beginning.

Tom Rosenbauer (04:20): Right. Yeah.

RA (04:47): the beginning of it.

Tom Rosenbauer (04:49): And but crabs do float. I know I know I have seen I've seen tarpon eating floating crabs like at Boca Grande when the crabs flush out to the ocean. ⁓ And ⁓ actually had him had him take floating crabs never caught one but I've never seen a permit doing it. Is it something is it something that is become more common because of all the sargassum weed that's floating around? Do you think?

RA (05:06): Yeah. Yeah, so you hit it right on the head. I think one of the big things that's happening is all that sargassum that is washing into these different parts of the fisheries during different times of the year is bringing a lot of floating life. You got a lot of shrimp, you got a lot of crabs, and so inherently you have the fish looking where the food is, and so they're looking up and they're looking into the sargassum. They're seeing these floating crabs. ⁓ You know, think that, yeah, the environment has definitely influenced how people are fishing for permit in a big way.

Tom Rosenbauer (05:52): Why did why do crabs float? What are they doing on top?

RA (05:57): Yeah, I don't know. mean, I've asked them, but they, you know, it's funny, like back to your prior question, you know, we were, we film a lot for permit. We spent a lot of time walking around just waiting and waiting and waiting. And when you're hanging out with a camera and you don't have a fly rod and you're observing what's around you, like you see craps floating all the time, you know, and they're, and they're, they're floating for whatever reason. But, you know, and then you approach them and they kind of make that dive and they can go down or they'll stay up and skim on the surface. So I think we've all been seeing, we've been seeing this behavior for a really long time. ⁓ Just connecting the dots and putting the pieces together took, you know, took a couple of decades, which is interesting.

Tom Rosenbauer (06:39): huh. Now does this happen only in certain locations like where you go in Mexico or does it happen wherever there are permits?

RA (06:52): I mean, that's a fantastic question. think, you know, I have to be fair. I've been watching content from Australia and folks getting permit down there. Granted, you know, a little bit different fish, but I've been watching folks catch permit there for a long time. you know, I can't speak for all the different fisheries that I haven't visited, but the fisheries that I have been through, you know, primarily through Mexico, you know, this behavior seems to be really prevalent.

Tom Rosenbauer (07:04): Mm-hmm. Yeah.

RA (07:21): even when Sargasso is not around. And I think that's probably the most fascinating aspect is that we've seen the Sargasso, we've seen that fishery, but then like on this last filming project, we caught a tremendous amount of fish on top ⁓ without any grass around. So it's just very, very keyed in on eating off the top, which is one. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (07:39): Hmm. Wow, yeah. So when they're feeding on top, is their behavior different? ⁓ Can you tell that a permit is gonna be a good candidate for taking something on top?

RA (07:57): You know, we fished the last trip that I went on, we fished primarily top water the entire time. And so we were targeting all the fish like that. ⁓ And I'd have to say I became a very firm believer. I was a believer before, but this last trip, really, it really changed my mind for sure. And I think a lot of it too is, ⁓ you know, when you think about trying to present a fly to a very wary species, ⁓ throwing a big heavy fly.

Tom Rosenbauer (08:03): Wow.

RA (08:27): at a fish that's very spooky, ⁓ comes with its challenges, right? And being able to deliver a dry fly or a floating crab ⁓ to a species that's very selective and skittish, I think it's a lot easier in lot of ways. It's lot easier to cast, lands lighter, all the things.

Tom Rosenbauer (08:29): Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does. Yeah. And the fish can't see it as well. So they're less likely to probably realize it's a fraud, I would think.

RA (08:56): Yeah, and think one of the other challenges when you're fishing, you know, a weighted crab or at least a challenge that I had is understanding where my fly is in the water column. You know, you're casting a really long ways a lot of times because it's a spooky species and you know, where is my fly? it, is it where I want it to be? Is it deep enough? Is it on the bottom? Is it caught? Does that have seaweed on it? Like all these different.

Tom Rosenbauer (09:04): Mm Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is there something in their behavior that tells you, this, one's a target for a surface fly. I mean, are they, they, you know, often they're, they're, they're tailing or they're, they're cruising near the bottom. Although then you see them in mid water a lot of times moving fairly rapidly. Um, is there, is there a particular body language that tells you that this is a target for a floating crab?

RA (09:47): Yeah, I think that becomes really evident when we've had a number of days that have been really slicked out. Those days when you're out on the water and there's just not even a whisper of wind. ⁓ And those days when you can see everything. You can see permit from ⁓ a tremendous distance because ⁓ there's no movement on the water. And those have to be the hardest days, right? Because you can't... Yeah, mean, when the wind's not beating you up, it's...

Tom Rosenbauer (10:04): Mm Yeah. Right. Yeah, although we love them. Yeah, it's nice.

RA (10:17): It's fantastic, but ⁓ I think ⁓ that's an instance where we'd see a lot of fish getting up high in the water column and kind of not totally floating, but cruising real slow. ⁓ I think that was probably a real turning point when we got to observe those fish. ⁓ It's really, really hard to get any kind of weighted fly to at that point. The lightest little splash.

Tom Rosenbauer (10:30): Mm-hmm Yeah, I would imagine.

RA (10:46): A bird flying overhead is going to spook them. you know, a weighted fly landing would just send them into a panic. And so being able to cast, you know, a real small, soft, foam fly and to answer your question, looking for fish that are moving and have a little bit more movement and they're actively hunting as opposed to more stationary and kind of laid up, I think is always, is always what we're looking for.

Tom Rosenbauer (10:48): Mm Yeah. Right. Okay. And then and then ⁓ what is that? What is the presentation like to these to these fish with a floating crab?

RA (11:19): ⁓ Probably the most fun part of it is, know, just like with any permit presentation, you're going to try to get the fly as close as you can in front of the fish without spooking the fish. But then as you start to slowly work that fly across the top and you get a little bit of movement, you know, you can watch these fish turn and you can watch them kind of start to engage with it. And, you know, it starts to kind of be a little like, you you got to keep that fly. in close proximity and have enough movement and keep it natural. ⁓ But ⁓ they start to act a lot like a jack and very predatory and to kind of see them turn on and come in is, as you would imagine, it's just mind blowing.

Tom Rosenbauer (12:01): Do they do they sometimes follow it for a long time like a jack will?

RA (12:06): Yeah, and sometimes you'll have two, you'll have a couple fish, know, kind of get in. And I think that's probably the best scenario when you can kind of get that little bit of you know, competition thrown in the mix. Yeah, you'll see fish kind of get up on it. And then, I mean, we've seen, you know, some of the, some of the footage that we shot, we shoot it in very slow motion. So you can kind of analyze and eat, you know, at a very slow rate. And we've had shots where we've looked at the footage and what you think is one fish.

Tom Rosenbauer (12:16): Yeah, yeah.

RA (12:36): you know, eating a fly, you know, cut it and you slow it down and there could be three fish trying to come in at the same time. So, it turns.

Tom Rosenbauer (12:45): Oh, now, so what's the what's the what the strip like? Is it a slow strip? Is it steady? Is it a reddick? And what do do when a permit turns on it? Do you slow it down? You speed it up? Or any? Yeah.

RA (12:58): Well, I usually pull it out of its mouth because I get too excited and I blow the entire shot. So that's what I do. What you know, I think the last one that I caught I had put it out in front of a bunch of fish and as you typically do I'd wrap the line around my feet and so I was trying to know untangle the line from around my legs my feet and the fly wasn't moving and as I looked up

Tom Rosenbauer (13:19): Yeah. Ha ha ha.

RA (13:27): fish just came on a broadside and just took it to broadside without movement. ⁓ And so, but no, I think, you know, I like to try to have, you know, low and slow and steady long strips and just keep that, just keep that fly moving. You know, just cause if you watch those crabs when they're on the top, you know, they will kind of pull their claw back and start to swim and have those, you know, it's just kind of a little.

Tom Rosenbauer (13:30): ⁓ without without any movement. OK, yeah. huh. Yep.

RA (13:58): little slow little bumpy movement. And so I try to replicate that if I can without getting too excited.

Tom Rosenbauer (14:02): Okay. Is there anything, once they're on it, if they're chasing it, chasing it, chasing it, do I know this, this is the million dollar question. Do you speed up? Do you slow down? Do you stop any, any advice there?

RA (14:16): I try to just stay consistent and then just try to wait until you feel the fish come tight. Again, your heart's beating out of your chest at that point and it's really, really hard and I'm notorious for trout setting on all saltwater species.

Tom Rosenbauer (14:18): Okay. huh, okay. Yeah. I'm assuming that you don't want a trout set on a floating crab.

RA (14:37): No, you want to set the hook just like you would on any other permit or bonefish or any similar flat species. Yeah, exactly. Easier said than done though, right? For us trout fishermen.

Tom Rosenbauer (14:42): Just a long strip, long strip until you feel tension. Okay. Yeah, yeah, easier said than done. Well, I finally get it. And then I come home with six inch brook trout and I strip strike them on a dry flight. yeah. So, you know, you can never, you can never win.

RA (14:52): Yeah. you did? No, no, no, you're always, yeah, you're always, yeah, it's funny. And have you fished for permit quite a bit?

Tom Rosenbauer (15:09): No, not a lot. know, ⁓ over the years, I've thrown to him caught a view. ⁓ But I, honestly don't like to go on trips where it's mostly chasing permit. I like, I'm immature, I like to catch fish.

RA (15:32): Me too. Yeah, well, I mean, there's such a fascinating fish because I mean, we all have our different theories about it and we try to analyze them a lot, but I just feel like it's one of those species where, you know, if it's the right day and the right time and the fish are happy, you're going to have a great time. And if it's not any of those things, you can do everything in the world right and they're just not going to work with you. And that's kind of the...

Tom Rosenbauer (15:50): Mm-hmm, yeah.

RA (16:01): No, that's the most frustrating thing is your lack of control.

Tom Rosenbauer (16:04): Yeah, yeah, it is. And, ⁓ you know, all fish will do that to you, but it seems like permit do it more than most.

RA (16:10): Yeah, for sure. But yeah, but they're just a phenomenal species. And I think ⁓ it's really interesting to see. I think the strangest thing about what's happening with permit on top water is just how long it took for us to come to that understanding as anglers.

Tom Rosenbauer (16:29): Yeah, and you know that you made a really good point about the lack of disturbance when you're throwing a little, we'll get to the flies in a minute, but when you're throwing a little foam fly or something, it's not as likely to spook the fish. And I never thought of it that way. It's a lot more stealthy. And yeah, so that makes total sense.

RA (16:45): Yeah. It is. Yep, yep, just quiet and you can I mean and I think you know that those flies depending on the size and how they're tied ⁓ You know, they can travel and cut through the wind a lot easier Than a really big free fly. So I enjoy throwing them more as well. So

Tom Rosenbauer (17:03): Yeah, yeah. How, so what flies are you using? Are there any standard patterns right now that ⁓ people are using?

RA (17:18): Yeah, there's a handful on the market ⁓ and they vary quite a bit in the size and the look. There's a lot of commonality obviously in the materials. There's a lot of foam ⁓ and that sort of thing. But it's interesting to go fisher to fisher and watch what people are throwing. ⁓ In southern Mexico around the X flats where we shot one film.

Tom Rosenbauer (17:37): Yeah.

RA (17:44): ⁓ Everything was real small. mean, some of these, some of these, bodies of the fly could be about the size of a nickel, maybe a quarter, very small, which is surprising. I was really surprised. ⁓ And then, you know, this last project that we worked on, lot of the flies were probably two or three times the size.

Tom Rosenbauer (17:52): that's small. Wow. Yeah. Mm Yeah. Okay. And so they're mostly foam bodies with rubber legs and things like that on them.

RA (18:09): for the most part and you know they're tied in a way where they have good movement and they look natural in the water. ⁓ But I found, I mean everybody has their own preference, but I found the smaller, lot of the smaller patterns a lot more enjoyable to cast.

Tom Rosenbauer (18:15): Okay. Yeah, are there are there are there YouTube videos on how to tie these floating crabs or somebody must have a video on on the patterns.

RA (18:36): Yeah, and actually it's interesting. You'll see an explosion of patterns on the market. Actually, Tommy, one of our characters in one of the films, Tommy, he has his own very specific pattern that he came up with. And it's been great to see he's actually taken that to market. And so you'll see Tommy's floating crab. I can even send you a link. cool to see these flies kind of starting to show up, starting to see them in fly shops.

Tom Rosenbauer (19:02): Yeah, yeah.

RA (19:04): Whereas it was something you would run into, know, people would show them off here and there and it was a little bit more coveted. Yeah, I mean, to see them commercially out there, I think speaks volumes for how this style of fishing has changed.

Tom Rosenbauer (19:17): Mm Yeah. Any any special color? You I assume you generally match the color of the crabs that are around but are they like some tan some olive?

RA (19:28): Yeah, you hit it right on. A lot of them match very closely. ⁓ The crabs that we were fishing in the Sargasso have a lot more yellow to them. A little bit brighter color, which I think is helpful too, just to kind of have a little bit more of visual cue for the angler too, because I'm getting into mid-40s now, and it's a little harder to see flies now these days. So I'll take...

Tom Rosenbauer (19:39): Okay. Yeah. Nobody's feeling sorry for you are a mid 40s. ⁓ my god

RA (19:57): Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's nice to see, ⁓ but it's nice to see that fly a little bit easier, you know.

Tom Rosenbauer (20:03): Ha ha ha ha.

RA (20:06): But yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (20:07): Now, how about about other species? Have you seen bonefish taking floating crabs? Have you caught bonefish on floating crabs? Yeah.

RA (20:15): Yep. So not a lot. I mean, we've tried to that's something that we've really wanted to capture on film. ⁓ Just because you don't see it, right? ⁓ And so we've thrown floating crabs are ridiculous number of bonefish and converted quite a few. ⁓ They're a little bit more awkward, as you'd imagine trying to eat off the surface.

Tom Rosenbauer (20:21): Yeah, yeah. Right. Hmm. Yeah, yeah, they're not built quite well. Carp and suckers eat off the surface. So I imagine that that bonefish figure it out to

RA (20:41): No. Right? Yeah, but it's pretty entertaining. I mean, anytime, you know, I think, look, bonefish are usually a lot more available. You encounter them a lot more often than permit and you know, you get a lot more exposure to them on the flats. And so I think, you know, I think it's, you feel a little bit safer kind of throwing top water bonefish schools or bonefish, you know, because again, they're just, you run into a lot more.

Tom Rosenbauer (21:00): Yeah. Well, I'm going to the Bahamas for a few weeks and we'll probably see I know we'll see Bumfist you might see some big permit I'm going to tie some up before I go and try it out.

RA (21:26): Yeah, I'll send you some patterns to check out for sure. Yeah, and you're gonna enjoy it. You'll enjoy casting them for sure. It's like night and day different.

Tom Rosenbauer (21:29): Cool. Cool. Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine it's going to be a lot more pleasant, especially if it's a nickel sized foam fly. That's easier to cast than most of the trow flies I use in Chile.

RA (21:48): Totally. See, but I still, if I was going to the Bahamas and you know, some of those really, really large bonefish there, they're so intelligent, so picky. Like I think I would, I would still be nervous to throw a topwater presentation just because you don't get as many shots and same, but that's the same kind of like, you know. Struggle.

Tom Rosenbauer (22:07): Yeah, but it might be something they've never seen as an artificial, you know? I think it's worth a try in other places. I'm sure Redfish too, Redfish ⁓ should work on Redfish, Snook.

RA (22:12): Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we've been throwing stuff like that at Redfish for a long time and Redfish are all over it. They love eating on top if conditions are right.

Tom Rosenbauer (22:22): Hmm. Yeah. Wow. Well, that's exciting. You know, it's it's so cool that there's I mean, this isn't totally new, but it's new to most of us. I remember I remember reading Al McClane like 40-50 years ago talking about catching bonefish on dry flies. on, I think it was floating crabs. was a long time ago and he never really followed up much on it, but he thought, think it was shortly before he died. He thought that that might become a thing and then, and then you didn't hear anything about it. So,

RA (23:03): Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I have to go back and read some of that. That'd be cool.

Tom Rosenbauer (23:09): Yeah, but, it is new. Certainly it is new. The idea of catching bonefish or permit, ⁓ on a floating fly. mean, redfish. Yeah, they take poppers and stuff, but, ⁓ the idea of catching bonefish and permit on a floating crab is, is an exciting thing and something really new.

RA (23:28): Yeah, it just goes to show how we kind of get stuck in these different lanes. ⁓ We're getting these ways of doing things, ⁓ which, again, it goes back to you want to do what you think is going to be the most successful. You don't have a lot of shots that permit. You want to do what's tried and true. And I get it. But it shows what happens if you can kind of break the mold a little bit and you get communities that are thinking different. It's amazing what can happen in a very short, rather short period of time.

Tom Rosenbauer (23:34): Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Always something new, always something exciting.

RA (24:02): Yeah, exactly. we'll see where it takes us.

Tom Rosenbauer (24:06): All right. All right. Anything anything else that we missed on the on the floating crab idea?

RA (24:13): ⁓ I'm sure stuff will come to me once we get off the call.

Tom Rosenbauer (24:18): Well, we talked about we talked about presentation. talked about flies. We talked about reading body language of fish and where it might occur. guess we've covered it all. Now it's up for the rest of us to go and play around it and experiment with it.

RA (24:34): Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah, go give it a shot and don't be scared to, you know, don't be scared to pull those floating crabs out of your box. Don't wait until the last day. Give them a shot.

Tom Rosenbauer (24:44): I got to tie some before I go.

RA (24:47): Yeah, when are you going?

Tom Rosenbauer (24:48): ⁓ In about two weeks. I got time to Tyson.

RA (24:53): Okay, cool. Yeah, I'll send you a couple examples if you want to check them out. They're pretty cool. Nice, well thanks for taking the time to chat. Appreciate it.

Tom Rosenbauer (24:58): Okay, great, great. RA thank you for coming on the podcast and good luck with your future films. know you're probably working on something cool right now that you can't talk about but ⁓ if anyone listening has not seen any of RA's films you probably you have a website or a YouTube channel where people can see them.

RA (25:25): Yeah, if you go to offthegridstudios.com you can check out the Silent Spotter, which we were talking about, and a couple of the other projects that we have on tour right now.

Tom Rosenbauer (25:33): Great, great. And the ones that are on tour, obviously, like the IA4, people won't be able to see them streaming until after the tour is over, Right.

RA (25:35): Yeah, lovely. Yeah, not until the end of the year, unfortunately, but they'll be online as soon as the tour's over.

Tom Rosenbauer (25:47): All All right, RA thanks for taking the time today and thanks for the education. All right, good to see you.

RA (25:53): Appreciate it. Good to see you. Thanks brother. Talk soon.