Secrets of the Mother's Day Caddis, with Taylor Edrington

Tom Rosenbauer (00:02.225): Well, my guest today is Taylor Edrington. Let me start that again. My guest today is Taylor Edrington from Royal Gorge Anglers. Taylor, you've been in this business since you were what, 15 years old?

Taylor Edrington (00:20.782): My whole life really I've been doing podcasts since I was maybe late teens, let's say somewhere in there. But yeah, no, I grew up grew up in the industry. My father started our fly shop in 1990. And so I just turned 39 last month. So I've been been

Tom Rosenbauer (00:22.716): Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (00:30.131): Uh-huh.

Taylor Edrington (00:47.394): work in the fly bins since I could crawl, so to speak. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (00:50.238): Yeah And you actually recently fished with some of the Orvis crew, some of the Orvis Adventures crew, didn't you?

Taylor Edrington (01:02.518): Yeah, yeah, you know, we had a fantastic weekend here with Jeff and Natalie Cullum and Davis and their team and videographer and, you know, we got out and we got to get into some new Orvis product and get out there and kind of test that out. got to fish for a few minutes you know in between and so it was great we we had conditions right one evening where we we got

Tom Rosenbauer (01:31.304): Hahaha.

Taylor Edrington (01:45.294): from the boat. It was incredible. I got some really cool eats on big number two mice. really, I've seen a few of those shots and there's nothing better than that. I'm a streamer junkie at heart. there's only one thing better than throwing a streamer and that's a mouse pattern, right?

Tom Rosenbauer (01:48.744): Wow.

Tom Rosenbauer (02:12.606): And when it was light so you could see it too, right?

Taylor Edrington (02:16.77): Yeah, I mean later in the evening, but yeah, plenty of light, know, kind of that magical last hour type situation. But we do that a lot. We love the big dries here on the Arkansas, so that's kind of our cup of tea, so to speak.

Tom Rosenbauer (02:20.131): huh, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (02:37.244): What new products were you playing with?

Taylor Edrington (02:41.132): Yeah, man, got to, I got to squeeze into a sample size clear water waders zip. So the new zip waiter, which yeah, I know, know probably not. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (02:51.198): We can't talk about those. was hoping. I was hoping you'd talk about the recons or something in the Hydrose Reels. It's okay.

Taylor Edrington (03:00.81): Okay, okay. Yeah, fair enough. Sorry about that. You're going to have to edit right off the bat. So, yeah, I mean, we were out with Recon, the new Recon, you know, which has been a fantastic rod. I personally think that six weight is just...

Tom Rosenbauer (03:06.759): Yeah, yeah.

Taylor Edrington (03:23.662): a real sweet spot for that rod family. So we did fish it a little bit with larger dry dropper and streamers. So that was really cool. You know, the new Hydros reel.

Tom Rosenbauer (03:29.214): huh.

Taylor Edrington (03:44.3): You know, got to get it, you know, work it through the paces, the ratio. We had the ratio on a couple rods, which is just, you know, in my opinion, that reel is gonna kind of reset the saltwater reel game. You know, it's just a fantastic product for the price point. So.

Tom Rosenbauer (04:03.355): Mm-hmm.

Taylor Edrington (04:08.898): But yeah, we had a blast, a lot of laughs. Reid Bryant was out there and Reid is one of my favorite people in the world. yeah, we kept cracking jokes and enjoyed our time out there for sure. Yep.

Tom Rosenbauer (04:19.314): huh. Yep.

Tom Rosenbauer (04:27.985): And you've been a product tester for us for years, right? I you've been on the cutting edge of a lot of the new products before people see them.

Taylor Edrington (04:38.09): Yeah. Yeah. I think, I started testing for Orbis, maybe, you know, early on in, our endorsement period. So probably around 15 years, and, you know, certainly have seen the evolution of the Helios and the recon. And of course now, you know, the new super fine graphite series, which is one of my.

Tom Rosenbauer (04:52.807): Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (05:07.798): true favorites around here because we just we love we love throwing dry flies and and we have a lot of really beautiful cascading you know freestone creeks around here that feed our feed our river systems and and so we do a lot of that small water stuff and that rod has kind of just just one of my go-to rods and

Tom Rosenbauer (05:09.211): Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (05:28.061): Hmm.

Taylor Edrington (05:35.402): I enjoyed testing that series in particular.

Tom Rosenbauer (05:38.801): Yeah, it's nice to nice to cast a rod that really bends, isn't it? Yeah, it's what they're supposed to do, right?

Taylor Edrington (05:43.628): You know, I mean, let's get one that bends every now and then. say, yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

Tom Rosenbauer (05:52.498): Well, I asked you to, I asked you to come on today because, you know, your home water is the Ark and Arkansas has a great mother's day caddis and it's a big hatch. it's a big hatch throughout actually most of the country. We have a, we have a, we have a caddis here. don't know if it's the same species you do, but it's, it's a, what is it? Brachycentrus is the genus and it hatches in great numbers around mother's day.

Taylor Edrington (06:16.695): Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (06:21.447): here and I know that it's really, it's really big in the West. So you had a lot of experience with it. Let's talk about that hatch and what we can expect and what tips you have for fishing it.

Taylor Edrington (06:21.901): No.

Taylor Edrington (06:35.586): Yeah, yeah, I mean, the Arkansas has been known as a spring Caddis River for a long time and we have a number of tremendous spring hatches. know, the the Blue Winged Olive Hatch is one of my particular favorites, but you know the the the Caddis season is one of those sought after events here on the Arkansas Basin and in our Valley, so.

Tom Rosenbauer (06:52.892): Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (07:05.23): you know, yeah, the, the, the caddis that we're, we're talking about now, that big kind of the mother's day caddis as it's coined, is the Brockie centrist oxidant Alice and that is, is of course that case builder. you know, when you're, when you, hook that, that stick log rock, whatever, and, pull it in and,

Tom Rosenbauer (07:18.749): Okay.

Taylor Edrington (07:32.978): all those little cases kind of, you know, glued together into the substrate material. And, you know, a lot of times you'll pop that thing and squeeze it and it's that bright green little larva. You know, that's the caddis we're talking about now. We have so many different types of caddis in our river. We've had

Tom Rosenbauer (07:40.796): Right.

Taylor Edrington (07:58.248): know, free swimming caddis hatching for about a month now. And so we have a lot of, you know, rocophila and other caddis in the river. And we see those hatch throughout the season. You know, we have really great caddis hatches, know, little tan sedges in the summer and big October caddis in the fall. but, you know, really when When we talk caddis, everybody really kind of zones in on that, that April, May time period because we're talking true, true blizzards, historically blizzards of caddis. And, you know, it, it's, it's a time period that's super magical, you know, to be on the river and see something go down like that.

Tom Rosenbauer (08:49.031): Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (08:49.152): and for fish to you know, keyed to that and to get, you know, a two or three hour session of single dry elk hair catfish fishing, you know, that's really fun. And those fish really, they lose all inhibition, you know? They go wild on that. It's one of those like one that I always think of in the summer that I love to fish that's similar is the yellow sally. know, fish for some reason they just, they love that bug more than anything. And when they, you you've got a dramatic amount of them on the water, it's like, you can do no wrong. You're just the number one angler, you know? Yeah, it's a...

Tom Rosenbauer (09:10.761): Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (09:34.747): Yeah, yeah.

Taylor Edrington (09:37.806): But yeah, as far as how we approach the hatch, this year is a wild year. We've had such mild conditions throughout the winter season, as you know, Tom. It's been the lowest snowpack on record. Very similar to 2002, which was my second year guiding. 2002 was very similar. And that year I can remember early hatches. And we're seeing that again. Obviously, bluing started in February, which usually that's middle of March. And now. We've seen caddis really taking a big uptick in early April. I mean, we've had blizzard hatches here within the last week. yeah, we prepare for the big explosive adult fishing, but. You know, throughout on the precipice of that and then throughout the hatch, we really do well in that emergent stage.

Tom Rosenbauer (11:07.461): Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (11:07.51): You know, as soon as there's a few caddis around, man, those fish really key to that caddis pupa and, and the, the, that movement. So we can really, we can get out and we can, you know, dead drift and then frig, and then we can let our clients swing it. you know, let it let it tail out, get tight to the fly, you know, and we we get hammered on the swing, which there's nothing better than that. You know, that tug is really fun. and so, yeah, we we have really focused on that emergent stage over the last several weeks. And we'll always do that on the front edge of the hatch and then. you know, we never lose sight of that throughout the hatch because I, still feel like that's the stage where you can really get the most work done. You know, it's, it's a stage that, you know, people sometimes forget about when they see a few fish rising, you know,

Tom Rosenbauer (12:04.145): Yeah. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (12:15.328): I always tell people when they come in the shop, you know, if you see a few fish up on, on adults, how many fish do you think are feeding subsurface on, on pupa? You know, it's usually a, a dramatic number on that side, you know? And so, yeah, no, that's a thing we talk about a lot in the shop, you know, and on guide trips and

Tom Rosenbauer (12:37.639): Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (12:40.724): And like I said, people that haven't gone out and swung a wet fly before, when we start to have an uptick of catus activity, to be able to go throw even traditional wets or even if it's your newer style, know, CDC hackle, you know, imitations, duracells, blowtorches, things like that. You know to go out and be able to instruct people how to how to swing a wet. It's pretty neat It's pretty neat and people just don't understand that theory anymore Wouldn't you agree like I don't I don't see people out there swinging wet flies much

Tom Rosenbauer (13:23.053): you see, you're seeing what you're seeing more and more. think more people are experimenting with it. but yeah, but let's get, let's get into that pupa stage. Cause, cause I think that it's often a frustrating situation and I can think of the, the, the situation where you see a few adults on the water and you see these splashy rises.

Taylor Edrington (13:27.04): I think you're right. I think you're right. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (13:49.934): And you don't really see fish feeding on the adults with the Fisher, the Fisher. Some people say they're chasing quickly emerging pupae. Some say that the splash is because the Fisher deep and they're seeing the pupa near the surface and their momentum carries them up. What, you know, observing these fish and observing the bugs, what do you think is going on down there? When do these things really pop to the surface quickly?

Taylor Edrington (14:08.268): Yeah. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (14:20.354): Well, I don't know if you've read Catasplives by Gary Laughlin. Well, hundreds of times.

Tom Rosenbauer (14:25.747): of course, hundreds of times. Yeah, and I know it's blasphemy to disagree with Gary LaFontaine. So if you're going to disagree, that's okay.

Taylor Edrington (14:37.23): I don't I could only hope to understand one millionth of what Gary knew about caddis, right? But one thing I do understand as a guide is just how fish key to movement and quick movement during the caddis season. That makes me think that that bug is more of a projectile than a mayfly would be.

Tom Rosenbauer (14:45.681): Yeah. huh. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (14:59.333): Okay. Okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (15:08.411): Yeah, OK.

Taylor Edrington (15:08.482): You know, I think that, you know, we all understand mayfly drift. That takes time. Sometimes they're drifting for miles, you know, and finally they get into the subsurface film and they split that wing case, you know, that air bubble pops, that wing case splits, and then they drift, drying their wings for however long, you know? I think...

Tom Rosenbauer (15:31.857): Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.

Taylor Edrington (15:37.454): that that catus pupation is aggressive. I think it happens, you one of the things I remember from Gary's book is that he described the catus pupa as a full veil, translucent veil, and that entire wing case,

Tom Rosenbauer (15:43.27): Okay.

Taylor Edrington (16:04.27): encapsulated air, right? So think about the bug is having a large veil over the entire back of the bug, over the entire wing case. So when we think about that caddis adult fluttering and when it lands on us, you know how long those wings they lay back, right? So, far. So that

Tom Rosenbauer (16:16.541): Yeah, okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (16:24.721): Yeah, yeah.

Taylor Edrington (16:28.27): When we think about that veil, think that that covers almost the entire length of their body. when, when they develop those air bubbles into the, that, that veil, that translucent veil, I think that that's a fair amount of air, right? It's a, that's more than say the wing case of that blue winged olive, you know? So I think, I think that acts.

Tom Rosenbauer (16:50.279): Should be, yeah, yeah, makes sense.

Taylor Edrington (16:55.67): like more of a missile to the surface, you know, and, and, that's my take on it is a, you know, just understanding, how many fish we catch on the swing, regardless of whether we're, we're focused on that method or our clients are unaware and

Tom Rosenbauer (16:58.278): Okay.

Taylor Edrington (17:19.906): Their flies are down here and they just, as soon as they get tight, it's boom. You know what I mean? As soon as they get right and that fly gets rapidly pushed to the surface, that keys them. And of course there's a, there's a component of that with every emergent bug, right? But I think more so with caddis. And so I think that, that is something that

Tom Rosenbauer (17:27.014): Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (17:32.219): Right. Yep.

Taylor Edrington (17:46.734): You know, maybe I understand a little bit. Maybe it's a little bit more rapid than a mayfly, right?

Tom Rosenbauer (17:53.682): Have you ever tried to look in the water and see these things coming up? I know I haven't, I haven't had very good luck. know LaFontaine used a snorkel and mask and watched them underwater.

Taylor Edrington (18:06.382): Yeah, man. you know, I feel like the times that I've tried to do that with a snorkel mask. I've got so many fish rising around me. just, I'm not sure how patient I can be, right? I've got a rod leaning in the willows behind me and I'm I'm going how many

Tom Rosenbauer (18:16.082): Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (18:21.255): Hehehehehe Yeah. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (18:31.766): All surface, you know, and how many more splashy rises can I hear or see before I just break down? Like, I'm not a scientist like Gary was, you know, he truly was in the, you know, plenty of others in our industry and in this great sport, right, that probably are more patient on things like that. But...

Tom Rosenbauer (18:37.014): Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (18:56.716): And like I said, that truly is the Bible on caddis. So I feel like, you know, understanding some of those concepts from Gary, you know, truly are helpful for me as a guide, but I surely cannot dissect one one hundredth of what he's talking about in that book, you know.

Tom Rosenbauer (19:18.941): Yeah, yeah, okay.

Taylor Edrington (19:21.634): But yeah, man, what I do know is fish love them. Fish love cactus. They do. They love them. And it is an absolutely thrilling hatch to fish. And yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (19:28.859): Yeah. Yep.

Tom Rosenbauer (19:38.395): Now, let's go back to the pupas though. when you're fishing these, do you ever like dead drift a caddis pupa and then not swing it, but dead drift and then lift it up quickly? Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (19:55.266): Yeah, that that high zingler lift, know, tap. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, and throughout that drift, is that what you're you're saying? I mean, honestly, one of my favorite techniques is a guide for those that that really want to learn about that kind of dapping swing, right?

Tom Rosenbauer (19:58.92): Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (20:19.709): Yeah, yeah.

Taylor Edrington (20:22.182): is, you know, presenting, quartering upstream and then letting that fly sink enough, kind of like we're presenting a streamer, bumping a streamer, same concept, right? And so getting that fly down in the strike zone and then, you know, creating that movement to trigger the fish, you know?

Tom Rosenbauer (20:34.941): Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (20:48.391): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Taylor Edrington (20:50.51): Throughout the drift, could bump that thing four or five times throughout the drift and then bring that rod tip back down to the water at the end of the drift, come down. And a lot of times the fish is there at the very terminal end of the drift. But yeah, I think you're...

Tom Rosenbauer (21:01.927): Yeah. Right.

Tom Rosenbauer (21:09.531): Okay. Yep.

Taylor Edrington (21:17.878): keying that that strike with the fish, you know, and you can do that throughout the But I think there's so many ways it's very fluid, you know what I mean? A lot of it very much depends on where I'm observing fish feeding. If I

Tom Rosenbauer (21:25.265): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (21:31.345): Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (21:37.189): Yeah. So tell me about that. Tell me about, you know, looking at the rise forms or the splashes. Tell me what causes you to use one technique over another.

Taylor Edrington (21:48.446): Absolutely. Absolutely. I think within that emergent category specifically, that pupa, if I see more...

Tom Rosenbauer (21:58.59): Hey, Taylor, hang on, hold that thought. I think the UPS man is gonna come. So I got two labs here that are gonna get all excited. So I'm gonna leave for a minute. I'll be right back, just hang on. It always happens during a podcast.

Taylor Edrington (22:03.734): All good. You're fine.

Taylor Edrington (22:08.27): We're good.

Taylor Edrington (22:12.654): You're fine. You're fine. it's in there.

Taylor Edrington (23:12.238): Hmm

Tom Rosenbauer (24:46.225): fails.

Taylor Edrington (24:51.234): Good to go.

Tom Rosenbauer (24:51.549): Alright, so where were we?

Taylor Edrington (24:54.548): Okay, I think we were kind of at the point of, you know, understanding where fish are.

Tom Rosenbauer (25:07.899): Yeah. Reading the, reading the rise forms and what you do. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (25:09.742): on specifically on pupa is that that you want to okay perfect

Tom Rosenbauer (25:14.811): Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (25:20.366): Yeah, so what I would say is that when I can really understand visibly see where fish are feeding, kind of, let me, I'm gonna start over, that's horrible. Okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (25:38.396): Okay.

Taylor Edrington (25:44.078): I would say, you know, one way of truly understanding how to rig that, that caddis pupa and actively fish it is, you know, if you start to see those, those free jumping fish, those fish that are, that are leaping, you know, and, and, uh, I feel like they are really focused on

Tom Rosenbauer (26:01.937): Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Taylor Edrington (26:11.244): those bugs in the first six inches, right? And so that pupa as it is ascending into the subsurface foam and maybe even trapped, you know, maybe trapped in foam. And so I think that method that we were talking about, you know, and maybe even fishing a single caddis pupa unweighted,

Tom Rosenbauer (26:23.901): Right, yeah, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (26:36.914): Mm-hmm.

Taylor Edrington (26:38.478): And just allowing it to sink, giving it some slack line, you know, presenting quartering upstream, you know, a little bit of slack, letting it sink a quick lift, a lift throughout, you know, however many times, is a great, great method for that, you know? however, I feel like they're, you know,

Tom Rosenbauer (26:55.516): Yeah, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (26:59.814): Mm-hmm. Okay.

Taylor Edrington (27:06.378): is a time when those fish are maybe from the substrate to midwater column to detrit that caddis pupa, know, underneath a chubby or underneath a caddis dry, you know, we do very well in.

Tom Rosenbauer (27:15.713): Mm-hmm. Okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (27:21.201): Yeah. Okay.

Taylor Edrington (27:27.182): you know, these great parachute foam caddis that are out there today. You know, one of my favorites is a fin fetcher. I don't know if you've heard that fly. Beautiful, beautiful black foam, black or olive foam body cut wing with the parachute. So I really love to throw a size 14, 16 black foam.

Tom Rosenbauer (27:34.918): Mm I haven't. No, I have to look it up.

Tom Rosenbauer (27:44.795): Mm-hmm.

Taylor Edrington (27:54.978): body caddis and then run a little bit lighter bead head, you know, pupa, whether it be one of Gary's deep sparkle pupa or a graphic caddis with a bead, know, John, John Barr's pattern that, you know, those are, that's a method as well. If you've got fish in that mid water column and you see them flashing and they're going to town on on those emergent caddocks, you know? And of course, you could fish those guys deeper and closer to the substrate. And I think that brings me to the thought that, well, this is why we catch so many fish in that stage of the life cycle, you know?

Tom Rosenbauer (28:23.911): huh, yep.

Taylor Edrington (28:43.618): We're fishing that entire water column with that book, you know, I'm just present in more of the water column than any other stage. And a lot of times too, you know, going back to one of your points is people can get frustrated by I've got all of these bugs on the water and there's only a few fish rising.

Tom Rosenbauer (28:46.96): Yeah, yeah, we are.

Tom Rosenbauer (28:55.312): Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (29:06.778): Yeah, yeah.

Taylor Edrington (29:12.206): And these are odd rise formations, you know? There's no method to the madness, you know what I mean?

Tom Rosenbauer (29:22.17): Yeah, there's no, there's no cadence. There's just an occasional splash and they're, they're not consistent. Yeah. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (29:26.808): Very, yeah, very dramatic. And I hear it all the time and I go, you know, did you fish a cataspeupa? Did you, did you drop that, that down? And they'll go, well.

Tom Rosenbauer (29:41.772): Hehehe. Hehehehehe.

Taylor Edrington (29:42.294): I'll care caddis and get the job done. And I only caught a handful of fish and I go, well, again, if I see that many bugs in the air on the surface and I only see a handful of fish, you know, rising, there is a solution in that subsurface. We know where they're feeding. Now there are times this hatch on this river, when we get those big blizzards, right? What we always tell people is, especially if they're driving, know, if say they're in Bighorn Canyon, right on the river, that beautiful 60 mile stretch just upstream of Canyon City,

Tom Rosenbauer (30:34.001): Right.

Taylor Edrington (30:34.792): And they're driving along the river and they hit a massive wave of caddis, a blizzard of caddis, you know, in the truck. Literally where you got to use the windshield wipers, right? And it happens. We always tell them, don't pull over immediately into the hatch, right?

Tom Rosenbauer (30:42.214): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (30:48.868): Mm Yeah. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (30:57.87): because you need to get on the leading edge of it, right? moving upstream, mean, at least be slightly downstream or slightly upstream. You don't want to be in the middle of that huge natural hatch, right? Because a lot of times what can happen is, and I've experienced it thousands of times, those fish gorge quickly on caddis. They do. And...

Tom Rosenbauer (31:01.883): Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (31:23.995): Mm-hmm.

Taylor Edrington (31:27.446): you can run into an even more frustrating circumstance in those big, big blizzard hatches where, you know, maybe, you know, they feed hard on the surface for a while and there's a lot of, there's a lot of fish feeding in that, that, midwater column as well. but Man, when they eat a good handful of caddis, I mean, that takes up a lot of space in their stomach. And we see that, you know, where it's an hour or maybe two, just mayhem, great fishing. And then it shuts off completely, you know? there are tons of bugs. It's a continual hatch.

Tom Rosenbauer (31:57.705): huh. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (32:11.364): Hmm. Mm hmm. Even though there's still bugs on the water. Yeah. huh. Yep. Yep.

Taylor Edrington (32:19.726): those fish will gorge. It just happens. There's so many bugs out there. It's not like when you have a big mayfly hatch, you know, compare a size 20, pseudo clean on betas to a, 16 Brockie centrist, right? There's a pretty big difference in bug size there, right? And there's so many of them, right? They, they just feed until they can anymore. And, and I find that,

Tom Rosenbauer (32:40.294): Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Taylor Edrington (32:49.09): You know, when we're floating, it's very enlightening how much that happens when I'm float fishing clients. Because if we, if we, you know, enter a section that has very active caddis life cycle.

Tom Rosenbauer (32:55.472): huh. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (33:05.17): going on, you know, the front edge of that is always the best fishing because man we sit there and hammer fish on Catus pupa and maybe, you know, a fair amount of fish on the surface as well. But then when we get into that heavy heavy hatch activity, it's like a light switch.

Tom Rosenbauer (33:10.223): Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (33:26.012): Huh, huh, interesting. So that begs the question. You wanna get on the hatch early, right? You wanna get on the hatch early in the emergence. What time of day do you typically see these things emerging?

Taylor Edrington (33:29.249): It is.

Taylor Edrington (33:44.782): Yeah, you know, I would say when, when we really get into the meat of our caddis hatch season here in the spring, that typically, you know, as soon as the water temperature hits that 52, 53 range, we start to see that heavier life cycle activity. Now,

Tom Rosenbauer (34:05.936): Okay.

Taylor Edrington (34:07.752): Weather being as it is in the Rocky Mountains, we have a lot of, you know, variability there, right? So, but I would say on a, on a beautiful bluebird day with no clouds in the sky, because radiant heat is key to that, as you know, you know, that, that sun penetration into the water column heats that water column so much faster. If you've got a cloudy day.

Tom Rosenbauer (34:14.598): Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (34:33.104): Yeah, yeah.

Taylor Edrington (34:36.344): Great for mayfly activity, not for catics. You need...

Tom Rosenbauer (34:38.192): Yep. I've seen the same thing. Katus loves son.

Taylor Edrington (34:43.458): They love sun. And so, you know, that's what's great about these rivers that have a lot of caddis and a lot of blue wings in the spring. You, no matter what weather you draw, you're going to have some great dry fly opportunities, right?

Tom Rosenbauer (34:55.27): Yeah, you got something good.

Tom Rosenbauer (34:59.994): Yeah, yeah. So what time, what, but what time does, what time do the pupus start moving and you know, what time do the things start hatching? Usually.

Taylor Edrington (35:10.4): Yeah, I really think on that on that really nice day, you know, 70 degree day, which is a really average day in April and May around around our area. You know that that's usually around kind of that 10 to 11 window 11 a.m. And then it just continues to build. You have more emergent activity. You have more caddis in the drift. Right.

Tom Rosenbauer (35:23.259): Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (35:29.688): Okay, okay, yeah.

Taylor Edrington (35:39.694): And so, yeah, and it's really interesting to understand, too, that incubation period that these case caddis have, right? I read, you know, about that in Gary's book, and I've seen, you know, several other research documents on caddis that really point to that, right? So you've got... with these case caddis, very different from those free swimming caddis, they've got a period of time where they close their cases. so the water temperature and weather and all of those variables play a huge part in that.

Tom Rosenbauer (36:16.464): Right. They, yeah, they seal them up. Yep.

Taylor Edrington (36:30.082): sequence as well. So when we, when we think about kind of the timing here on our river, we begin to ask our guides and we'll go out and we'll, we'll make a concerted effort around the end of March to start looking at cases and see, you know, in what sections they're starting to close. Right. And then it gives us kind of a timeline on when we start to see

Tom Rosenbauer (36:53.538): Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Taylor Edrington (37:01.09): that progression move up the river of that adult activity of that emerging activity.

Tom Rosenbauer (37:06.756): Yeah. Do you have any idea, do you have any idea of the time period between when they seal up and then when they actually hatch? it days, weeks? Weeks, okay.

Taylor Edrington (37:18.912): It's weeks, it's weeks. Yeah, you know, and I don't know that that is a certainty for this caddis everywhere, right? As we all know as anglers, the only thing, you know, that isn't certain is what a bug's gonna do on a daily basis. But,

Tom Rosenbauer (37:29.378): Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (37:39.767): Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (37:43.969): I would say two weeks is a good round number for incubation period. think my dad is definitely an entomologist as well. And he's spent a lot of time, you know, really kind of dissecting that process. And he was good friends with Gary as well.

Tom Rosenbauer (37:48.38): Okay, all right. Okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (38:07.729): Mm-hmm.

Taylor Edrington (38:10.092): You know, I think that was kind of a timeframe that he's really landed on, on our river, you know? And my dad, I mean, he wrote the book, Fly Fishing in the Arkansas. I mean, it's, so I'll definitely lean on him for that because like I told you before, I've...

Tom Rosenbauer (38:21.584): Yeah, okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (38:26.076): Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (38:34.228): I'm like squirrel, you know, where's, you know, I'm not going to pay attention to those details, but you know, when I'm on the river, I'm into fishing and getting after it. But yeah, I I think, I truly think that's a pretty round number on our river. So they, you know, that's why we start looking at the end of March because

Tom Rosenbauer (38:43.74): Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (38:59.508): One thing I'll say about our hatch, at least for the time period that it begins, in the Canyon City area where we're located at the base of the 102-mile gold medal section, we begin to see heavy adult activity on the average water year. around tax day and that's what we call it the tax day hatch and and the reason we try to educate people about that at least on our river is that many times they'll come around Mother's Day and we'll begin to see high level snow melt at that point right a month later so

Tom Rosenbauer (39:23.195): Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (39:41.02): Mmm. Okay. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (39:46.594): You know, you've seen a pretty massive progression of that hatch in that time, and you could have missed some of the best fishing. And so we'll see, you know, if you, if you come in around Mother's Day, middle of May, somewhere in there, you know, or late May, thinking that it's the Mother's Day hatch, I'll give it a little bit of time to start to pump up, you know. comment though in late May it could be 3000 CFS and chocolate milk here you know what I mean? It might be over once that snow melt hits what's water temp do? It goes in the tank you know so no no

Tom Rosenbauer (40:20.028): And the bugs might be over too, right? Yeah. Yeah. goes down, yeah. You gonna have any snow melt this year? But we're talking normal years, right? Yeah, so let's move on to the adults because I know that I've caught fish on dries and seen fish eating the adults. I remember a day on the Lower Henry's Fork, I remember.

Taylor Edrington (40:38.07): Normal years, yeah. Yeah, we, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (40:56.006): great day on the beaver kill and on the Delaware where the fish were actively eating the winged adults on the surface. So talk a little bit about that.

Taylor Edrington (41:07.148): Yeah. Yeah. I, I really think, you know, you can understand the difference by that full tip back and, and splash that right. Right. I also, will see those fish.

Tom Rosenbauer (41:21.84): Right. Yep. Yep.

Taylor Edrington (41:29.614): A lot of times tip back and you can see their tail. They come down off of that fly, right off of that bar and they go down with it. Whereas the rogers like we were talking about, think, you know, transversely, that is a launch, not an up and down, you know, eat. So,

Tom Rosenbauer (41:34.928): Mm-hmm. Yep. Right. Yep. Okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (41:51.432): huh. Yep.

Taylor Edrington (41:58.402): That is something to visualize for people. And yeah, you know, absolutely. Going back to where we see that the most, I think there are, you know, within the adult stage, we're not talking about egg layers because egg layers are my particular favorite to fish on the surface.

Tom Rosenbauer (42:00.809): huh. Okay. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (42:22.436): Yeah, we're going to, we're going to get into that afterwards. yeah. We're going to talk about Aguilera's.

Taylor Edrington (42:28.096): within the adult timeframe, that leading edge is so important. Like I said before, you don't wanna be in that huge blizzard. Maybe you wanna be in that for a moment, but you really want to be on the front edge of it where there are, you know, a thousand bugs instead of a million, right?

Tom Rosenbauer (42:46.012): Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (42:54.056): huh. Okay.

Taylor Edrington (42:55.118): And so fish are much less selective and they're typically not gorged at that point. You know what I mean? I think that's key, right? And absolutely, we see it all the time. We do, we see fish lined up and if there's enough bugs on the surface, they will pick that feeding lie.

Tom Rosenbauer (43:03.132): Okay. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (43:22.644): and they will sit there and pick those bugs apart on the surface.

Tom Rosenbauer (43:27.066): Right. Now, do you, do you dead drift or do you Twitch? Do you Twitch your catasflies when? huh. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (43:31.648): I do a variety of things. really, really do. I try to read those fish as much as I can, just like I would have following a crab coming in, you know, it's kind of like, okay, I'm going to dissect this half a dozen fish in this feeding line, in this bone line, you know, I'm going to go, okay, is it a super aggressive splashy rise?

Tom Rosenbauer (43:41.68): Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (44:00.686): then I maybe want to move that fly a little bit more. But on the flip side of that, Tom, you can see them eat a catus like a mayfly. It happens, they'll tip back and just sip that thing right off the surface. Even an adult that's fluttering on the surface, right? Which is just wild to me. You would think it would really take a more aggressive reaction.

Tom Rosenbauer (44:04.197): Okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (44:12.603): yeah. yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (44:18.128): yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (44:21.53): Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (44:29.838): I don't know. think it's fun to be able to change that up on the fly. It really is. That's what makes fish and catfish so fun.

Tom Rosenbauer (44:41.775): Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (44:46.47): That's the game, right? That's a game figuring it out.

Taylor Edrington (44:50.158): Fluttering, skating, like yes, absolutely love skating, dries in general, but with caddis it is one of the most effective methods. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (44:51.899): Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (45:01.596): Mm hmm. Yeah. Okay, so we're gonna talk I want to talk about egg layers. Now this is when they come back. but I think that it's important to talk about migration flights because I tell people this all the time. I see it all the time. The air is full of caddis flies, and they're all flying upstream, like they got someplace to go. and there's nothing on the water, right? And you can see this for days and days and days. And people think they're in the middle of a caddis hatch, but caddis can live out of the water for a month, unlike mayflies. And they migrate every usually late afternoon, early evening, and they migrate upstream. Do you see that as well with your cat? you know, where you talked about driving along the...

Taylor Edrington (45:41.154): Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (45:53.863): driving on the road and seeing caddis on the windshield. You gotta be careful of that because sometimes it's just a migration flight.

Taylor Edrington (46:01.39): Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I think there's such a large mix, right? I think there are a lot of bugs. Like, all go to a given area, you know, on a Wednesday. And it's a giant hatch.

Tom Rosenbauer (46:19.035): Right? Yep. Yep.

Taylor Edrington (46:22.166): Right. And I go, okay, I'm going to come back the next day or two or three days later and kind of see, see what that progression looks like. See what the other egg layers come right back. you know, and some, there have been many times where I've seen a big hatch in a specific location, come back two, three days later and huge egg layer return. But.

Tom Rosenbauer (46:33.401): huh.

Tom Rosenbauer (46:36.795): Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (46:49.093): Mm-hmm.

Taylor Edrington (46:51.37): Again, so many variables with this because you don't know again if it's migrating caddis from downstream, right? You don't, you don't know. but yes, we do. There are many times, even yesterday was a day like that where we had on Sunday and Monday, we had some very massive.

Tom Rosenbauer (46:58.79): Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (47:14.252): Blizzard hatches. Okay. And, and we had our guides out in, in similar areas on a Wednesday. So Sunday, Monday, we had huge hatches and then they were out in, in those areas expecting perhaps an egg layer returns in the mornings or evenings, which typically when we see it, those low light time periods and nothing.

Tom Rosenbauer (47:35.056): Yeah. huh.

Tom Rosenbauer (47:39.951): Okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (47:44.068): Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Taylor Edrington (47:45.132): There was nothing. Two or three of my guides text back and went, where are the bugs? And I went, well, heck, I don't know. I'm man in the shop, but no, that very much is a thing, Tom. I 100 % agree with that migration.

Tom Rosenbauer (47:54.178): Hahaha!

Tom Rosenbauer (48:07.408): Yeah, yeah.

Taylor Edrington (48:13.73): But I do think, again, that that is not a certainty. I do think that those bugs will go mate in the vegetation, above the vegetation, and they return several days later in the same location too. I do, I do. think it's a good mix. I really do, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (48:25.606): Yep. Right.

Tom Rosenbauer (48:31.972): Okay, you think so. Okay. Okay. Okay. huh. So, so how do you know when it's egg layers and not hatching caddis and how do you fish that differently?

Taylor Edrington (48:46.038): Yeah, yeah, you know, this brings me to why it's so fun to fish that state, right? so that, that egg layer is an ovipositing female caddis. Okay. So let me break that down. You've got.

Tom Rosenbauer (48:50.478): Okay. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (48:58.384): Right, yep. Okay.

Taylor Edrington (49:03.374): You have those caddis that go to the edges, the banks, the vegetation, the willows, they mate at whatever point in time they return. Those females return to the water to lay their eggs. The way that they do that is different than a lot of those other bugs. They...

Tom Rosenbauer (49:15.952): Right. Yep. Yep.

Taylor Edrington (49:27.692): with their egg sac down, tails down, Tail, I shouldn't say tail, egg sac down, drop hard on the water surface and then accelerate up again. And that's what we call dotting the surface, right? And so when you see, when you're out on the water,

Tom Rosenbauer (49:33.019): Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (49:41.66): Okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (49:45.734): Uh-huh. huh. huh.

Taylor Edrington (49:55.34): typically those morning evenings because they return at low light. Now it doesn't mean that they, you won't see egg layers throughout the day, but I would say in a dramatic fashion, I've seen many more in low light scenarios, kind of like your spinner falls, right? And so,

Tom Rosenbauer (50:12.462): Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Taylor Edrington (50:20.238): That is what you see most often times is you see those females and there are a thousand of them out there up and down, up and down, dotting on the surface, right? And so here's what's cool about this scenario. Typically in the morning and the evening, what don't you have? Emergent activity. Because the water temperature isn't...

Tom Rosenbauer (50:45.317): Mm-hmm.

Taylor Edrington (50:49.526): right for it. Okay. Sun's not up, water temps not up, you don't have caddis pupa in the drift, right? And so you're eliminating that bug activity. And so what I find is the best dry fly fishing you can have during the caddis hatch on any river that I've ever fished is during those egg layer returns because

Tom Rosenbauer (50:50.758): Yeah, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (51:02.863): Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (51:15.61): Now, I'm.

Taylor Edrington (51:16.78): the fish have less options, you know?

Tom Rosenbauer (51:21.956): It's only on the surface.

Taylor Edrington (51:24.782): It's only on the surface. That's what I love.

Tom Rosenbauer (51:26.246): So what they dot, they dip their butt in the water and they go up and then they come down. Do they eventually then just fall to the water spent like a mayfly spinner? Okay. Okay.

Taylor Edrington (51:41.464): So here's what happens. And this is, it's a little gruesome. So, so for it is nature, your caddis now, I think there are a portion of them that probably fall to the surface as a whole bug. But for the most part, and I've read this in a lot of different research about caddis and,

Tom Rosenbauer (51:46.268): All right. That's all right. It's nature. It's nature, right?

Taylor Edrington (52:07.65): We witnessed the spent bug a lot and so this makes sense. so listen to what I'm saying here. That bug dots hard and at some point in time that egg sac and its internals pull off of the wings and drift and fall to the substrate. What's left

Tom Rosenbauer (52:14.684): I'm listening, I'm listening.

Tom Rosenbauer (52:27.782): Okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (52:33.542): Okay. Yep.

Taylor Edrington (52:36.894): It are simply the wings and the head. And the reason I know this happens more times than not is a million times guiding. I've been in a scum line during an egg layer return and thousands of wings.

Tom Rosenbauer (52:39.76): Aha!

Tom Rosenbauer (52:54.331): Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (53:00.22): Huh.

Taylor Edrington (53:01.134): with just a head on it or maybe just wings or what have you, but when you pick up a handful of them, there's no body. Maybe there's a couple of bodies in there, but when you pick up a thousand of them, 900 of them have no bodies. So that, that

Tom Rosenbauer (53:07.676): Yeah?

Tom Rosenbauer (53:11.452): Huh.

Tom Rosenbauer (53:15.024): Yeah? Huh.

Taylor Edrington (53:24.3): then goes into the spent. What does the spent look like? Well, it doesn't look like much. It's wings.

Tom Rosenbauer (53:31.654): So do you have a you have a catus imitation that's just head and wings?

Taylor Edrington (53:37.482): Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We fish, we fish,

Tom Rosenbauer (53:39.036): Hmm.

Taylor Edrington (53:42.592): Several we've got half a dozen spent caddis that that is a very nichey pattern, right? It's for those scum scum line suckers, right? Backed ease and different things but it it happens and you know, so you want to keep a couple of those in your box and You know my favorite Our favorite patterns are really simple just

Tom Rosenbauer (53:48.771): Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (53:53.339): Huh.

Tom Rosenbauer (54:03.504): Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (54:12.596): a really super fine dubbed body with a CDC wing and that's it. And then a lot of times I'll just run that underneath an egg laying caddis because we're fishing them many times simultaneously. And so in order to understand where my bug is in a scum line with a thousand

Tom Rosenbauer (54:19.471): Okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (54:25.23): huh.

Tom Rosenbauer (54:28.6): Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (54:37.282): you know, spent caddis re-circing, right? I'll throw it behind a lead indicator fly, you know? And so, yeah, very simple pattern. Again, it is simply the wings. And yeah, I mean, it's, I've pumped fish before that are just full, just absolutely full of them.

Tom Rosenbauer (54:46.299): Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (54:54.929): Huh.

Taylor Edrington (55:04.972): with no bodies. It's crazy. Zombie cat. I like that. We're going to coin a new pattern maybe.

Tom Rosenbauer (55:06.576): Zombie caddis, huh? Wow, interesting. Yeah, man, I never noticed that before. Maybe our caddis don't do that, but that's, I'm gonna look. I'm gonna spend a lot more time looking.

Taylor Edrington (55:23.846): The thing about the process of when that egg sac gets pulled off, right? Because, you know, that open, that's why they're dotting, you know, they're trying to release that they're hitting the water relatively hard when you see them do that. And so that is, I mean, it makes perfect sense to me if I

Tom Rosenbauer (55:30.148): Yeah, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (55:41.38): Yeah, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (55:49.009): And their body's probably mostly eggs inside the body anyways because they're not feeding at this stage. So internal organs would not benefit them at all.

Taylor Edrington (55:56.899): We right. Yeah, exactly right. think that that body turns into, you know, an egg sack essentially. Probably some, you know, a portion, a 20, 10 % portion. I don't want to get real scientific about it. But all I...

Tom Rosenbauer (56:01.68): Hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (56:09.37): Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (56:17.562): Yeah, now some cat, some cat has also dived underwater to lay their eggs, right? In that case, you could swing a wet fly or something. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (56:24.398): Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and you know, that's a really, really cool pattern too. You know, you've got you've got beadhead adults diving in caddis. It's pretty neat. It's pretty neat. But yeah, that's a that's a different bug.

Tom Rosenbauer (56:39.952): Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah.

Taylor Edrington (56:47.18): That's a different bug. don't, I don't see them. we have a few of those on our river and, know, in our area, but I do not see those during this window of time. The, the Brockies are very much that dot the surface by the thousand, you know?

Tom Rosenbauer (56:48.441): Uh-huh.

Tom Rosenbauer (57:05.532): Okay, yeah, and that seems to be the most common catus in nearly nearly every river.

Taylor Edrington (57:12.93): Yeah, think those are the largest number in the Rocky Mountains for certain. And there are many different cased caddis out there. yeah, and then right now we've got so many of those free swimming caddis as well in our systems.

Tom Rosenbauer (57:18.629): Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (57:24.784): Yeah, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (57:34.278): Right.

Taylor Edrington (57:35.97): You know, there's just tons of those out there too. So it truly is cat-a-season in the spring, man. It really is. It's fun. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (57:43.429): Yeah. And you know, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting that, that, despite the fact that Gary LaFontaine's book was written, what 30 years ago, 40 years ago, we still don't, we, and he did so much research. We still don't, a lot of us don't understand catasflies, as well as we should.

Taylor Edrington (58:08.75): It's a mythical creature, man. Yeah, no, they're a cool bug. Like I said, the one certainty in my mind that I've developed throughout my 20 plus years guiding is that fish love to eat them. In one life cycle stage or another, it's just...

Tom Rosenbauer (58:10.596): Yeah, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (58:29.21): Yeah, they do. They love to eat them.

Taylor Edrington (58:39.276): When there's blue wings hatching simultaneously, they do not key on the blue wings. They, on our river in particular, now doesn't mean they won't randomly eat a blue wing. And many times I will, especially float fishing, because we're moving in and out of different sections. I will fish a parachute caddis with a beautiful extended body blue wing underneath.

Tom Rosenbauer (58:49.85): Yep. Yep.

Tom Rosenbauer (59:00.56): Yeah, yeah.

Taylor Edrington (59:08.814): And that's a phenomenal double dry method. But I would really say if you are standing in the middle of a simultaneous hatch, which happens a lot, they are to pick the bigger bug. They're off.

Tom Rosenbauer (59:12.078): Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (59:23.932): Mm hmm. Yep.

Tom Rosenbauer (59:30.15): Now I, it's interesting cause I have seen exactly the opposite at times. I can remember a time during a Hendrickson hatch when it was cloudy and sunny and cloudy and sunny. When it was, when it was sunny, the caddis popped out and the fish stopped rising. And when it was cloudy, the Hendrickson started hatching and the fish rose and I pumped a couple of fish.

Taylor Edrington (59:56.398): Right.

Tom Rosenbauer (59:58.96): And there were a lot of cats on the water and I pumped a couple of fish and they had only mayflies in them. So, so, you know, it's, it's, well, it's what makes it interesting as you said, right? Cause you can't predict it.

Taylor Edrington (01:00:11.576): That's why we gotta go back out tomorrow and try to figure it out.

Tom Rosenbauer (01:00:14.138): Yeah. Yeah. We got to do more research Taylor. We got to do more research.

Taylor Edrington (01:00:18.242): Yeah. Cool bug.

Tom Rosenbauer (01:00:22.01): Well, this has been fun and I certainly have learned a lot and you've given me a lot of things to think about and to try this year. And I'm sure that podcast listeners are gonna get all jazzed up about trying new techniques for fish and catasflies.

Taylor Edrington (01:00:43.958): I love it. I love it.

Tom Rosenbauer (01:00:46.78): All right, Taylor, thank you so much. We've been talking to Taylor Edrington. Edrington, why can't I say that? Of Royal Gorge Fly Shop in Colorado on the Arkansas River. Orvis and Doors guide, field tester, and all around good guy. So Taylor, thank you for taking the time away from the shop today. All right, I'll talk to you soon. Hopefully we'll fish together soon.

Taylor Edrington (01:00:55.01): Got it that time.

Taylor Edrington (01:01:10.542): It's been my pleasure, Tom. Thank you. Absolutely, would love that.

Tom Rosenbauer (01:01:16.541): All right, thanks Tyler. Taylor, geez. I give up.