How to Spot Fish on Saltwater Flats, with Jason Franklin
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week is Jason Franklin of H2O Bonefishing on Grand Bahama. Jason's an old friend, and he's an amazing guide. And I wanted to talk to Jason about tips for sight-fishing tips for spotting species like bonefish and permit and tarpon in shallow water. I was looking for some panacea that Jason could tell us, saying, "Oh, you always have to look for this, or this, or this." And what I realized in the process of doing the podcast with Jason is there isn't a panacea, you know, different light conditions, different depths. You really have to kind of get used to the local environment for spotting fish. I mean, Jason does have some great tips on how to spot fish, but probably not what you were hoping or not what you expected. So, if you're going to be doing any saltwater fishing this winter or summer and you're gonna be sight casting in the shallows, I think you'll get a lot of good information out of this, just no magic bullet.
One small announcement. I have a book that I wrote a number of years ago called "Fly Fishing for Trout: The Next Level." And I put a bunch of videos in there with QR code so that I could explain things better through videos. And the videos weren't working for a while, and I got a number of letters into the podcast mailbox telling me that the videos were broken and not working. And it took a while, but they are now working. So, if you have a copy of that book and you weren't able to see the videos, they work just fine. And you can now go in and use those QR codes on your phone to view the videos in the book.
Now, let's do the Fly Box. And the Fly Box is where you ask me questions or my opinion, or you share tips with other listeners. And if you have a question, I try to answer it as best I can. If you have a question for the podcast, you can send it to me through an email at
"I already have a 3-weight, 7 1/2-foot Clearwater that I really like and enjoy using. Would a 2-weight provide significantly better experience when I'm catching these smaller fish, 6 to 8 inches? In regards to the 2-weight rod, I see they're offered in longer lengths, 10 footers. I'm reluctant because I'm concerned that it would be tough to avoid low-hanging branches and maneuvering through the woods. Could you possibly elaborate on the pros and cons of longer and shorter lightweight rods? My other option is to use a certificate for upgrading my weighting staff. The one I have now is difficult to fold up, and I have some nice-looking more compact versions. I see some nice looking more compact versions on the market." So, Josh, I don't think by going to a shorter 2-weight rod you're gonna have considerably more enjoyment.
I mean, 7 1/2-foot, 3-weight is the rod I use on small streams, and it bends just fine with smaller 6 to 8-inch trout. So, I don't think you're gonna get any added enjoyment in a 2-weight. If you just want a 2-weight, if you just like the idea of a 2-weight, then I'd get it, but I don't think it's gonna really increase the utility of your arsenal. Those longer 10, 10 1/2, 11-foot, 2-weight rods are typically designed as rods for Euro nymphing where you're basically casting just the weight of a couple of weighted flies and the leader comes along and you need a really sensitive tip to detect strikes. Now, they will work in small streams. George Daniel, I know, uses a 10 footer in small streams lot.
So, here's where it would be useful for you. If you're fishing these kind of bouldery mountain streams where you don't have a lot of brush along the sides, then, you know, a 10-foot, 2-weight might be fun. However, if it's a tighter brush, your stream, then yeah, I think as you stated, I don't think you're going to enjoy it as much. So, that rod is more for both Euro nymphing and dry fly fishing with delicate drives, but mainly in bigger rivers. So, I guess my advice would be to upgrade your weighting staff. You're never gonna regret having a good, reliable weighting staff.
There's an email from Andrew. "I hope you're doing well. I have a question about rigging dry droppers. I just saw a video on YouTube from Fulling Mill of Steve Carew tying a fly called the Clink Hammer Duo Special. This fly is a pretty standard clink hammer, but it has an interesting feature, a tippet ring on a piece of doubled over backing gets tied in at the bend of the hook before dubbing the body of the fly. When fishing with a dropper, you can then attach your tippet to this tippet ring. I've never seen this done before. And when fishing with a dry dropper, I've always just tied my tippet to the bend to the hook. I've never had my dropper come off my dry fly when doing this, even with a barbless hook and some very large fish. So, the question is, what's the benefit of using the tippet ring other than it perhaps being slightly easier to tie your tippet to the bend to the hook?"
Well, Andrew, I think you've got it. Yeah, the the tippet ring just makes it a little bit easier to tie a dropper to the bend of the hook than trying to form a loop around the bend to the hook. But, you know, if you're having good success just tying around the bend of the hook, I don't think you need to worry about it, but it is handy. You said you haven't lost any nymphs when using a barbless dry fly hook for your upper fly. But I have occasionally, it doesn't happen that often, but I have occasionally had my nymph slip off a barbless hook. So, it can happen, and that's where the tippet ring tied into the end of the dry fly might be an advantage.
Kyle: Hi, Tom, this is Kyle from Massachusetts. A longtime listener, occasional caller. I wanted to call in and give some observation on tight line tactics. It's a redundant topic, bless you for being patient with it, but I think you might find these useful, or the audience may. During the pandemic, I might've gone overboard learning fly fishing from some guides. And, you know, for those of us who learned tight lining during the pandemic, here's three tips to enjoy it more. Number one is take a dedicated casting lesson with fly line. I can't tell you how much of an improvement I had in the tight line, the model rig stuff that I had when I had better casting mechanics. It also helps for when I do saltwater and all the other things.
But improved casting motion will extend the effective range that you have, and it just overall helps you with being able to do things in a bigger river, like the Farmington, for example. Number two, if your drifts don't feel right, you can just focus on getting your anchor fly into the cushion. That's after the cast, right after the cast. You just picture the anchor fly where it is, how long you have to wait with the sighter just hovering loose over the water until you'll have that counterweight you need to tighten up and lift on your end. That lift straightens out the rig. If you wait long enough for the fly to fall below the fast top current and into the cushion, it really just makes that drift a lot more effective and natural. You'll also have strike detection too, pretty important.
Number three, perdigon are cool for some things, but really, you don't wanna rely on those all the time, at least if you're me, because they don't absorb when you screw things up. You know, if you move the rod a little bit funny or if the angle of your sighter's a little bit off, it pulls that fly a lot easier. Something that absorbs water like a mop fly or a soft tackle really absorbs your mistakes too. So, speaking of, Tom, I'm wondering what your creative brain might say about other ways to tie absorbent patterns to hold their seam or position in the water, mop chenille, nymph dubbing, or a couple that I've thought of and used, but I'm wondering what else comes to your mind, things that might be worthy of trying out. Thanks for listening, and I hope this was useful to the audience. And take care. Bye-Bye.
Tom: Well, Kyle, those are great tips. My thoughts on absorbent patterns or patterns that you want not to, not to sink so fast and get held underwater a little bit easier. I think that absorbency, like a mop fly works. Also, just a dubbed body where you pick it out like the hairs of your nymph, and just picking out the dubbing will make that fly a little bit more absorbent and a little bulkier. So, that would be my suggestion. Here's an email from Pat from New Hampshire. "I have several tips for the Fly Box. Number one, I keep an old cigar box on my tying bench, and when I use up a particular package of materials, such as number 14 dry fly hooks, Australian possum dubbing, or 8/0 black tying thread, etc., I put the empty package in the cigar box."
"Then when I head out to my local brick and mortar fly shop, I can easily inventory what I need to replace. Usually, these are materials that I tie with the most and use up so I can at least make an honest effort at not adding to my ever-expanding and voluminous tying materials collection. Well, not too much anyway. Number two, I went online and found and copied a bead-sizing chart that has both inch diameter and metric diameter bead sizes corresponding to the appropriate hook sizes for the beads. Then, when I get a new package of beads, I use a Sharpie to label the hook sizes right on the outside of the package. For instance, a package of 1/8-inch or 3-millimeter tungsten beads gets labeled number 10, number 12, number 14 hook sizes."
"I find this to be a big help when laying out materials for a tying session, because try as I might, I just can't wrap my head around what size hook 5/64th inch or 2-millimeter beads are good for. Number three, went out on the stream and rewinding in the fly line to either prepare to move or maybe tie on a new fly, I use my pinky finger as I loosely grip the cork to move the line back and forth, similar to the arbor on a baitcasting reel. This ensures that the line goes on the spool level and smooth and helps keep the line free of tangles or jams. When ready to strip offline again, it always comes off nice and smooth. After a while, this becomes second nature, and you'll find yourself doing it instinctively."
Well, thank you, Paul. Those are all great tips. Personally, I just use a note function on my phone. And when I run out of a material, I'll just type it into my phone in a list in a separate folder that's called Needed Fly Materials. But your cigar box thing is certainly a good suggestion. And I hear you with the bead sizing. I'm always having that problem too. Hairline sells the nice bead gauge that has has the hook sizes and the and the fractions and the millimeters on it. So, I tend to use that a lot. And yeah, level-winding that fly line on your reel is a really good piece of advice because you can, too easily if you're not careful, jam up the line on one side of the reel. So, that's a great tip. Thank you very much for those tips.
Here's an email from Justin from South Dakota. "I have a cheapo bobbin, and they either lost a little plug at the end or didn't come with one, and it kept cutting my thread. As I hate to throw things away almost as much as I hate tools that don't work, I asked my local fly shop for suggestions, sandpaper. I'm too lazy for this. Enter my hack. I put the bobbin tube in my vise, coated the flared end with a generous amount of Super Glue and used a bodkin to slide on a big nymph bead that rests just inside of the flared end of the bobin. A little more Super Glue around the contact points, and we are back in business. I put a lot of pressure on it and the bead doesn't budge. On another note, I've had the Orvis sling pack since I picked up fly fishing two years ago. It's wonderfully rugged, perfectly functional, and mighty comfortable to wear. One feature that I have yet to hear touted is how hard it is for fly boxes to fall out of unzipped pockets. I've left my pockets unzipped at least 30 times and never lost a box. I think the curve of the zipper is what gives the sling this perhaps unintentional feature.
Well, those are great hacks, Justin. And on that sling bag, yeah, I'm always forgetting to close mine up, and I haven't lost a Fly Box either. However, I would suggest all of you to do what I finally did and put my name and my email address and my phone number on all my fly boxes with a Sharpie. Because if you lose a fly box and an honest person finds it, you're gonna get that fly box back. So, it'll happen. You will lose a fly box eventually. And even though they get held pretty well in that sling bag, you may wanna put your name on your fly boxes.
Brian: Hey, Tom, Brian here from Watertown, Massachusetts. I got a question for you as well as a podcast suggestion. So, first, the suggestion. I often listen to the podcast while I'm driving, and when there are fly patterns materials or gear mentioned, discussed, I'm not able to write them down so I can go back to them later. Is it possible to have the transcript made available on the episode website, or a list perhaps of the items discussed as was done for the excellent interview with Michael Dechionne [SP] on the "Must Read Classics" in Fly Fishing Literature, just so folks don't have to go back and hunt through the audio. Don't get me wrong, I often listen to the episodes more than once, but I just think this would be helpful. And perhaps this content is already available somewhere and I'm just ignorant of where to find it.
Heck, you guys could probably package these transcripts up and sell it as an ebook or something. I'd probably buy it. My question pertains to fly tying. And I regularly fish a fairly well-known swift tailwater here in Western Massachusetts, and I've been experimenting with developing some of my own fly patterns, or a fly pattern. And as gratifying as it is to catch a trout on a fly you've tied, I can imagine it is even more gratifying to catch one on a pattern you've developed. I've admittedly had limited, meaning zero fishing success fishing my own pattern. So, I'm just curious about what goes into developing a fly pattern. Obviously, there's the imitative aspect of it, but how do you approach things like lifecycle stage, color, materials, complexity, size. In fact, there's so many patterns out there that I fish successfully. Why would I even develop a new pattern to begin with?
When do you think to yourself, "Man, if I only had a fly like this, I wouldn't have gotten skunked." And that's typically the thinking that has me, you know, moving forward with this. Is there any real creativity in pattern development anymore, or are things mostly variations and recreations, so to speak? And where does the innovation come in? And once you've got a general idea, what's the process for experimentation to get it dialed in? And how long does that take? So, anyway, that's like 10 questions, so apologies. And maybe you've covered this in a previous episode, but it really has me thinking. It's keeping me up at nighttime. Please help me, please. And thanks again for everything.
Tom: So, Brian, first of all, there are transcripts for all the podcasts on the Orvis Learning Center at howtoflyfish.orvis.com. Sometimes the very recent ones don't have the transcripts on them, but they will eventually. So, if you go into the Learning Center and click on a particular podcast, you will see the transcript there beneath the place where you play the podcast. Regarding fly patterns and developing them. Well, you know, it can happen a lot of ways. Sometimes a fly is just dreamed up in somebody's basement in the middle of winter and has never had any real field testing on the water, but it looks cool. And that that's one way of creating a fly. The other way of doing it, which is, I think, a little more little more beneficial to all of us is to have that brainstorm, tie a fly, and then go out and fish it and see how it works, see how it behaves in the water, see how it sinks, see how it looks in the water, and see how the fish like it.
And if the fish don't like it, then maybe come back and do some modifications. A lot of fly patterns these days are just building on something that's been done before. Like, if I see another jig-type nymph that somebody's developed because it has a different color thread or a different color rib on it. The other one is midge pupa imitations. Oh my God, mou know, you see a new midge pupa imitation every week, and it's basically somebody changed the color of the thread on the fly or something. But there is some real creativity. You know, things like Blane Chockletts, Game Changers, and some of the streamer flies. There is some real creativity there. But, you know, a real innovative creative fly doesn't come that often.
Most of the time, a new fly is just a modification of an existing fly where a tier thought, "Well, I don't quite like that material. I think this material will float better, or, I think this color will work better," and they make a modification. You take, for instance, variations on the wooly buggers or the muddler minnow, which are just endless. They're both deadly patterns and, you know, people have modified them over the years with new colors and new materials, and sometimes they work quite well. So, it's really a mix of things. And approaching the lifecycle or the color of a fly, you can look at look at a mayfly nymph and try to imitate the color as best you can, but often, something that's totally outside of the color that that nymph looks to you on the bottom or under a rock will work even better, you know, hotspots and flashy materials on nymphs.
So, we don't really know what appeals to the fish and a lot of these flies. And honestly, it's just a lot of trial and error and a lot of experimentation. Here's an email from Eli. "I am 15 years old and I live in the suburbs of Chicago. First, I would like to thank you for all the work you've done for the fly fishing community, especially us beginners. Your book was the main reason that I'm able to fish like I do today. And your podcast and YouTube channel are invaluable resources as well." Thank you, Eli. "My question today is about fly sizes in regard to setup weight. Since I live in the suburbs, the majority of what I fish for is panfish and small to medium-sized bass in small residential ponds and lakes. I have a 9-foot, 5-weight rod, and although I would like to get a 7-weight, I'm on a budget and will need some time to save up for a good one."
"I still really like fishing for bass on the 5-weight, but I have noticed that the larger the fly, the harder it is to cast. I was wondering, one, what range of hook fly sizes you could cast on a 5-weight. And two, would over lining my rod with a 6-weight help me to cast larger flies?" So, Eli, regarding number one, it's not really the hook sizes, but it's the bulk and the weight and the air resistance of the fly. So, I can't really give you a hook size, but, you know, when you start getting into things like poppers and deer hair bugs, they're very air resistant, they're broad and air resistant, and you're gonna have trouble pushing those with a 5-weight. The same thing for really heavy streamers with big lead eyes. You're gonna have a little bit more trouble with the 5-weight, but you can certainly overline that with a 6-weight.
Regardless of what brand of rod you have, most of the rods today, you can overline one-line size. You don't wanna underline them, but overlining them, you're probably gonna sacrifice just a little bit of distance, but fishing for bass, you don't typically cast that far. So, yeah, I think you can absolutely overline your rod with a 6-weight line. It's gonna help you cast larger flies. The other thing you wanna do if you're having trouble casting larger flies is don't try to use a long light leader, particularly for bass. They're not leader shy. And you can use a good, short, stiff leader, you know, 3-feet long. A 3-foot section of 20 or 25 pound will often work quite well for a bass bug. And you don't need a long light leader. And that'll help you cast those larger flies as well.
Here's an email from Steve in Remsen, New York. "Tom, I have been fly fishing for 40 years, and confess I'm a late comer to your great podcast. I'm now binging on the archive, especially the carp and pike podcast. I often fish one of the smaller finger lakes in New York for largemouth and tiger muskies almost exclusively on weedless topwater flies. I also keep a rod rigged for carp, which are plentiful, large, and hard to catch in this lake. No one fishes them. The lake is weeded-choked, covering the surface often, which makes leading a feeding carp difficult. I have to drop flies into small open area or holes and hope the carp stays on course and enters the hole. It's hard to drag and drop due to weeded hangups and the small size of the holes."
"Upside down hooks help, but don't solve it. I have scoured the internet and cannot find weedless carp flies. I suspect the carp would feel the weed guard or the guard would make hooking up difficult due to the structure of the mouth even on small flies. I haven't tied my own yet, thinking there's a reason they're not used. Any thoughts?" Well, that's a really good question, Steve. And I've never tried weedless flies on carp, but I would worry as you do that hooking might be a problem. And I don't think a weed guard's really gonna help you because, you know, when you're popping those flies into a pocket in the weeds, you're not really drawing it across the weeds, you just got to kind of drop it down into the pocket and hope that your fly doesn't get hung up in the weeds.
And I think even with a weed guard, your fly's probably gonna get hung up on the weeds. One of the things I would do is try to find a place where the carp are more out in the open. You know, sometimes you can find a flat or the edge of the weeds right along the shoreline where you can try the drag and drop. But those weed-choked areas are super, super difficult, and, you know, it's often just dapping. It's often just finding a hole in the weeds with a long rod, like a 10-foot, 7-weight or something, and just dropping your fly into those pockets, but it is tough. I don't think there's a real good solution. Carp are a pain when they're in that kind of water. So maybe you can find an area where they come out and feed where it's not so weed-choked.
Here's an email from Lance. "Hi, Tom, thanks for all the help you've sent our way over the years. I want to ask you a fly-tying question. I live in Nashville, Tennessee and have a lot of smallmouth and largemouth bass fishing close to home. And I wanna tie up as many streamers as I can during the winter months. Do you have recommendation on hackle choices for various streamers such as deceivers, flat wings, and wooly buggers? I'll be tying anything from 2 to 8-size hooks and wanted to know if a rooster cape would give me the versatility to cover all those flies with a single cape, or is there a better option? Thanks for the help. Have a good new year."
So, Lance, yeah, I think a hackle cape is gonna be a better deal for you than a saddle because saddles often have feathers that are all one shape and one length. And I think that if you're tying a range of hook sizes, you're probably gonna be better off with a rooster cape. And luckily for you, you don't want an expensive dry fly cape. You want something with a little bit more rounded tips if you can find it. You want a junkie hackle cape, basically. And you can often find these in flash shops or at sports shows. I know that Hairline sells some grizzly streamer capes. So, if you don't mind the barred grizzly, you can get some really good dyed colors in these grizzly streamer capes. That I think would be my best suggestion.
Here's an email from Jeff from New Orleans. "My father-in-law recommended drying one's fly line before storing it on the reel for any appreciable amount of time. He does this by unspooling the line and letting it air dry. While I've cleaned my fly line, and when fly fishing in saltwater, wash my reel down with fresh water, I've never dried my fly line before storing my reel. Is this a practice you would recommend?" No, Jeff, I don't think you need to do it. The drying of a fly line before you put it on the spool hearkens back many, many years to when fly lines were made outta silk. They were silk and they were varnished or lacquered, and they would rot if you put them on the spool wet. It would really ruin a fly line.
But today's modern fly lines, whether they're floating or sinking lines, water isn't gonna hurt them. So, you don't need to bother drying your fly line before you put it away. Here's an email from Clint from New Hampshire. "Hi, Tom. First of all, I'd like to say thank you for all you do for the sport and legacy of fly fishing. I think that many anglers like myself owe you a massive debt of gratitude for making the waters of the world more accessible and inclusive with your plethora of knowledge and progressive outlooks on diversity and inclusion. The world would be a better place if there were more Tom Rosenbauers walking among us." Well, thank you for that, Clint.
"Now, on to my question. Can I consider tenkara fly fishing? I am interested in getting a new setup to try it out, but every time I talk to my fishing buddy, he browbeats me about it and tells me it's not real fly fishing because it doesn't require any skill and that anybody can tie a string to a stick and chuck a fly around. It seems to me it's the same principle as tightline nymphing or the tactic of keeping as much of your line off the water and high sticking. Am I right? Should I find a new fishing buddy? Do you have any suggestions that I could use to perhaps open his narrow mind and give him a broader worldview? Thanks again, Mr. Rosenbauer."
Well, Clint whether you call tenkara fishing fly fishing or not is totally up to you. I think it is. You know, you've got a fly, you've got a long limber rod, you've got a fly. You don't have a reel on there and you don't have any fly line, you just got basically a long leader and a fly. But there is a fair amount of skill involved in tenkara fishing. And it's super-efficient, not just for tight line nipping, but it's really great for dry fly fishing if you get close to the fish, particularly in small streams where you can get pretty close to the fish, because you have a lot less problem with drag on your dry fly because, you know, you're basically just a little bit of your leader and your flyer touching the water. So, I think it's fly fishing, it's just different and it doesn't have a reel. I don't know how to open your fishing buddy's mind. Good fishing buddies are hard to find, so I wouldn't try to find a new fishing buddy. I would just get a tenkara rod and go fishing with it and ignore him.
Here's an email from Chuck. "I've been fly fishing for the past 11 years. I live in Memphis and fish a lot of warm water for bass and panfish. Recently, I've traveled to Arkansas for trout, more specifically the Little Red River. In two trips, I've only landed five fish all in a wooly buggers. On my last trip, I checked the fishing report flies and stocked the boxes. I went through 20 flies with very few looks. Then I switched to the wooly buggers and things changed. I basically fished them like a big streamer with speed and action. I spent five hours at the dam where the fish are in large numbers next to the hatchery, and caught one before I had to leave."
"I spent 40 minutes at some shoals down river from the dam and had multiple misses and a catch. Is this just the luck of the draw or knowing the dam is over fished? Should we have just stayed away? New to using midges and small drives, maybe the almost strike out was simply not knowing how to fish these correctly. My son had fun anyway, and already wants to go back. Thanks for any advice. Well, Chuck, if your son enjoyed it and wants to go back, you've already had a successful trip. You know, I think probably your problem with fishing those smaller flies was not fishing them totally dead drift. Midges, particularly when they're underwater and they're drifting, don't swim and they just drift with the current.
And any drag, any unusual movement on the fly is going to tell the fish, "Hey, that's not a midge larva or a midge pupa." And the fact that you did well on a wooly buggers, well, wooly buggers is fish actively, so drag doesn't matter. You strip it and you move it through the water. And I think that probably you need to pay more attention to perhaps using a little bit lighter leader, a little bit lighter tippet, you know, something down 5 or 6X, and really, really work to get a dead drift or a natural drift on your flies. And make sure you get them down to the fish. Sometimes with those little midges, you need to put a split shot ahead of them. But I think that just concentrating on getting a dead drift, you'll do better with those little midges and small drives the next time you go.
Steve: Hi, Tom, this is Steve in Washington DC. I have a comment about how to break a fly rod and a question about leaders and tippet length. I enjoyed the podcast that you and Charlie did about how to break a fly rod. And I kept waiting for my way to break my fly rod recently to be mentioned, and it wasn't. So, I thought I would call in and just add for the benefit of humanity this other way of breaking a fly rod, the source of which is at least something I think all of us fly fishermen have experienced, and that is a snag in a tree. So, recently, I snagged in a tree a line and leader with a split shot on it. That's the key consideration here. I pointed the fly rod directly at the source of the snag. I pulled on the line from about the reel seat, and of course, the split shot came racing back directly onto the tip top and broke the tip of the rod.
Needless to say, my lesson anyway from that is, if I'm doing that again, I'm gonna do my pulling from outside the tip top with the rod well off, out of harm's way. Since that was not one of the hazards that you and Charlie described, and yet I think it is a common circumstance that we fly fishermen put our lines into trees, I thought I would call and add that to beware. Secondly, the question is, when you refer to the length of a leader, as you often do on this podcast, do you generally, or is there no general about it and you mean to include the length of the tippet?
So, if you say, "Oh, in that circumstance, I'd use a 12-foot leader, do you mean the full length of the mono or fluoro outside the fly line to be 12 feet? Or should we imagine you're talking about a 12-foot leader attached to which is some further length, additional length of tippet? This always comes to my mind when I hear discussion of leader, as to whether or not we generally are talking about that full length of leader plus tippet, or in ordinary parlance when we're referring to leader, as I do, by the way. I'm talking about the length of the leader and the tippet combined. Thanks. Great show. Bye.
Tom: Oh, Steve, that's one we missed. You are absolutely right. That's a common one. And shame on us for missing that in our "Ways To Break a Fly Rod" podcast. So, thank you for that. Yeah, that's a good idea, always, is to put your rod down somewhere and then pull the line with your hand. And of course, turn your head so that that split shot doesn't hit you in the eye or something. And maybe even duck down a little bit so it doesn't hit you in the head. But yeah, that's a good one. Regarding length of leader. Yes, the tippet is just part of your leader. So, if I say I'm fishing a 12-foot, 5X, it's 12 feet long. Not that I typically know exactly how long my leader is, because I'm always modifying, adding tippet, subtracting tippet, making the tippet longer, making it shorter. So, you know, I don't really know. But if I were to measure my leader and tell you the length of leader I was fishing, I would include the tippet, and I think most people do as well.
All right. That's the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Jason about spotting fish on the flats. So, my guest today is Jason Franklin. Jason is an old friend and is the owner of H2OBonefishing on Grand Bahama, and my favorite bar in the world, Bones Bar. So, Jason's a busy guy. I guess, your head guide for H2O, right? Because you still do some guiding?
Jason: Yeah, every now and then.
Tom: Well, I know you've guided me, and you're just an amazing, patient, calm, fun person to be on the boat with. And I've learned a ton from you. What we wanna talk about today is spotting fish in saltwater. You know, I have a lot of people on this podcast that have never been on a saltwater trip and, you know, they wanna know what to expect. They worry more about learning how to spot fish than they do about their casting. I think it should be the other way around. I think most of them should worry and practice their casting before they go, especially to hit a moving target and to cast in the wind. But, you know, spotting fish is part of it, part of the enjoyment of flats fishing. And so, I thought I'd ask you to give us some tips on learning how to spot fish.
Jason: Yeah. Well, I mean, I'll do my best on that. I've been doing it for 18 years, so it's probably at the... If you had to have a bunch of stars align, it's probably one of the first things you want to align when you're out on the boat because you've got to see the fish, and, you know, that's probably one of the most important things you can do. And there's a whole lot of things that go into that as, I guess, as a set of processes that end up with whether you catch a fish or not. And seeing them really gives, certainly for what I do in The Bahamas, is all sight fishing. So, you've got to see the target to hit it, I guess, a lot of the time. And if you can't see it, then it's also, I guess, about working with your guide to try and find the target to hit. But yeah, it's actually a critical and the first step, I guess, in a whole set of processes.
Tom: Yeah, I've always found the guide can direct you. The guide can say, "You know, 2 o'clock, 40 feet." But if you don't know exactly where the fish is, your accuracy isn't really gonna be as good as it could be. You really need to be able to see that fish yourself to get the best result.
Jason: Absolutely. And it starts with, you know, what you have on your face to start with. So, you know, whether you need prescription glasses or not, the type of frames you have. Every little bit of detail helps when you're standing on the front of the boat. I have wraparounds, which I think are essential to keeping the light out the side of your eyes so you are always focused on what's in front of you. In terms of lenses, over the years, I've gone from, mostly in The Bahamas, I'm mostly fishing with sort of amber, copper, vermilion type lenses, which, you know, work very well in shallow water. Yeah. Most of the big manufacturers of the glasses these days have, like, a shallow water lens that you can buy.
I actually need prescription glasses. So, for me, I struggle to see distance, but I can see close. I'm good at tying flies on, but I'm probably not necessarily good at seeing fish at distance. So, having the right type of prescription is also... I've fish a lot of people over the years who, you know, maybe come with this, I think they call it progressive lenses, where you can see far and then you look down and you see near. And I think it's important, for me, I've only ever fished with the one style of lens, which is to see distance, because in this style of fishing, you're looking near and far. So, you know, when you start this process, when you're equipping yourself to have that pair of glasses, that allows you to see distance.
A lot of people have the progressive, which may not be necessarily good if you're looking at fish closer, but, you know, if you are looking further out and you might miss things. So, I think always equipping yourself with the right lens and what sort the right frame and then the right lens really starts you off on the right footing and gives you an advantage. The rest of it is then about, you know, working with your guide, understanding the water and stuff like that. As an example, I've fished... I'm just training a young guide at the moment, he has a distance, so he has his distance lenses. When we first started fishing, I would point out the fish. I had betts with him, every fish I saw before him, he'd have to pay me. And so, he still owes me a lot of money.
But one thing that I found, you know, the first four or five times of that, he was really struggling. And it wasn't because he was blind, it was because he's still trying to figure out the water itself and what was going on. And once he had this sort of eureka moment, it was like, "Ah, now I understand what I'm looking for." So, you know, he had the right equipment, but then it was then once you do that, it's about understanding then what it is you're actually looking for in the water. So, yeah, I mean, that's a really important part. As I say, before you go on a trip, especially if you're sight fishing, and depending where you are sight fishing, you definitely need good wraparound lenses, the right color. Like I say, for me, what I've done, I've always stuck with those sort of brown coppery-type lenses, which have always worked for me.
Tom: Because without saying polarized lenses, both of us are assuming, but most people or some people may not know that they've got to have polarized lenses.
Jason: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's pretty standard. I always assume that's part of it whenever I buy them, but yes, definitely polarized.
Tom: I've seen people show up on trips with sunglasses that weren't polarized. So, you got to specify.
Jason: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. As I say, that's the start of the trip. You can spend a wonderful amount of money on amazing rods and reels and flies and have all the gear, but if you don't have a good pair of glasses, you really start off at a disadvantage. So, it is important to get that first part right. And then the rest is all about working with your guide and understanding the water and the different species and what you're looking for.
Tom: Jason, how about hats? Do you have any preference in hats for blocking the sun? Do you believe that you need a dark underbrim and long brim versus short brim? Do you have any thoughts on that for sighting fish?
Jason: Yeah, I think that's probably an important part of it. It gets rid of some of the glare that, you know... I have a struggle in my head to pick. So, I can't wear, like, the baseball-style cap. So, I have one of those full sort of, I don't know what you call them, Panama-style hats that they have these days. So, I have it all the way around. and that works for me. But it is...I guess every tiny little advantage you can give yourself is important. So, the dark underneath is probably important as well. But I think that is a big part of it as well.
Tom: Have you ever tried putting black on your cheeks, underneath your eyes to help block some of the reflection there like football players do?
Jason: No, I've never tried that. I don't know. I mean, I've not seen any guys that do that. Maybe that's a secret trick or something.
Tom: I haven't either. I'm just wondering if anyone's ever tried it, so, well, maybe I'll try it someday.
Jason: No. I think because you are wearing glasses...but one thing you wanna do when you have the glasses is you wanna make sure they fit. So, the wraparounds are generally touching your cheek anyway. And if you've got those sort of more standout ray band style, I call them, type glasses, then that's gonna let light in. But if you've got the right sort of wraparounds and they fit you well, then I don't think you'd probably need any of that.
Tom: Okay. All right. So, let's talk about things you look for. Let's start with bonefish. So, when you're teaching someone, whether it's a new guide or a client, what do you tell them to look for?
Jason: That's a good question. I mean, I think there's sort of a process before that because you've got to communicate what it is to your partner. Most clients don't see fish particularly well. So, what you're trying to do is set up a communication. So one is, for me, I think it's important obviously direction and then distance. And then it's all about using the fly rod as a pointer to point out. Because a lot of the time, even if I said 12 o'clock, 60 feet, the client, he's gonna look at what he thinks 12 o'clock, 60 feet is, but his 60 feet might be 100, or it might be 40. And then generally, most people will look in a one-square-foot area and not really focus around an area.
So, once you've established that sort of communication pattern, and which is for me, important because so you say to the guy, "This is the clock system, and then see that mangrove over there. How far is that?" When he says 100, "Well, actually, that's 80 for me." Then you get this sort of understanding, "Actually, maybe I shouldn't focus too much on one area." But once you dial that in, and then you get to a point, let's say a fish appears, you can point that out, then they sort of can zone in on an area. And often by doing that first, you'll then get them to see fish earlier and spot those fish. And then you can go into sort of a more descriptive, you know...
I sort of akin at some of the time, depending on the bottom structures you are on and the color of the bottom, it's like, I think, do you ever see those dot pictures where you look at them and then all of a sudden the picture appears out of it?
Tom: Yeah.
Jason: And it's that sort of thing. What I generally try to do is focus on something on the bottom. So, when I'm guarding, I'm looking in and out and then left and right. I'm looking near and far. But I also know the bottom structure. So, I know there's certain things on the bottom that's fixed, and often you'll see a shadow go past it. And then you know you are onto something. So, often, some of the time you're not necessarily actually even looking for the fish, you are probably actually looking for a shadow and something that stands out that's unusual on the bottom. And sometimes when there's no light, you're actually not even looking through the water, you're looking on top of the water. So, you are looking for a ripple or something that just stands out, that's different than the surrounding area.
And if you focus on that, then often you'll start to find the fish. I think for me a lot of the time though, the important thing is that it's a communication you establish at the beginning of the process so that the guide really...because the guide is often a remote control for the client. So, I often, I have guys who learn to fish, and then I have clients who learn to fish with me. And the ones who learn to fish with me, they sort of daydream a little bit on the front, and then I switch on the remote control and I say, 60 feet, one is moving to the right. And they just follow my instruction and, "Boom, catch up, strip, stop, strip, boom, you got him." And that's one type of client, which is actually fine. That's what as guides, it's part of the process you create and the relationships you create with clients. It's a lot of fun.
And then there's people on the front who also are keen there's another pair of eyes, and therefore, I'm gonna focus and try and beat the guide to the fish. So, I'm gonna try and see him before four eyes instead of two are way better. So, with the guys who are fishing who are looking, all of a sudden I'm concentrating, because quite a lot of focus has to go into it. You have to be switched on through the day with these types of things. So because you might go through moments of boredom and all of a sudden there's chaos because fish appears. So, you have to be mentally there with it as well.
Tom: Yeah. Definitely. So, one of the things that you need to look for is movement because bonefish almost never are sitting still, they're constantly moving. And one of the things I always have problems with from a boat is that I have trouble because the boat's moving, you might be polling or you might be drifting, and the wind and there's a tide. And I always get confused or I often get confused because my brain can't pick out the things that are moving and the things that aren't. Is there a way to help with that? I mean, what do you do? Because, I mean, you see those bonefish moving, but you're pulling along and the boat's moving and the things on the bottom are moving too relative to you. So, how do you sort that out?
Jason: I mean, I think a lot of it is to do is, once you find the target, you've got to stick with it. So, you see the fish, "Okay, I see what the fish are doing. I see him, he's moving to the left." So you know automatically you've got a direction to follow, let's say if you do lose sight of him. A lot of people will say, "Oh, I see the fish." And they look back at the guy and say, "I see it. That's great." And then they look back again and it's not there. And they haven't sort of read the water in front of them. So, they're not looking at, "Okay, that fish is moving to the left, it stopped once and whatever." So, the key a lot of the time is, once you see a fish is really not take your eyes off it.
A lot of people when they're casting, let's say it's a backcast or forecast, start casting, and they will often focus on their cast and look back and make sure everything's beautiful and it's a tight loop, and they're not really thinking, "Okay, I've got my target. I really don't want to take my eyes off that because it's gonna move, the sun might go in." But once you see the fish and you find in there, you know... And often, when you do see the fish, there might be a piece of structure by the fish. There might be a little bit of seagrass or something that stands out. So, you've got a sort of a point as a reference where when you do go and look back, I often will look at that and go, "Well, that was there. He's moved from there. I know he was moving left," and I'll follow it to the left. And then you'll often pick them up again.
So, it's that sort of process of concentration. It's not, "I see a fish. Right. Okay." It's not like [inaudible 00:52:28], "I'm gonna hit bullseye. It's never gonna move." That bullseye's moving all the time. So, you can't just sort of sit back and have a chat about it. You've got to really get on it and follow it all the way through, which is key. A lot of people funnily enough just don't do that. It's like, "Okay, I've got to get set up. Is my line ready? Have I got the fly in my hand? Am I all set to go? When the guide tells me to start throwing, am I ready to do that?" And so, they're looking around and then all of a sudden they look up and it's like, "Damn, where did that fish go?" So, once you're on it, stay on it.
Tom: Yeah. All the more reason I think to practice casting and practice casting by holding the fly in your hand with a little bit of line out of the guide, maybe a rod length of line, so that you don't have to turn around and look at your back ass, because you wanna practice that ready position where you've got the fly between your fingers and rod...I don't know, what do you say, rod length of line usually out.?
Jason: Yeah. Five feet of line for me is probably... I actually wouldn't go a rod length, I'd go shorter. I mean, a lot of that's to do with...again, it's all about conditions. If you've got beautiful light and a wonderful bright day and it's 12:00 and the sun's high, you've got a lot more time to prepare and the fish you can often see from a lot further. But when you've got less light, which is sort of most of the time, if sun's in and out, often the shorter shots with a too much line out is a bit of a challenge for a lot of people when you've got so much line. The other thing a lot of people do is they drop the fly and end up with a great big tailing loop that sticks them in the leg wrapped around the pole.
So, you have more control with a shorter line then you go to start casting rather than a big, long piece of line. So, I've always preferred a shorter because most people as you know, we all get back fever when a fish appears and everyone gets very excited. So, rods start flailing all over the place. And so, it is much easier to start with that shorter than a longer when things start getting wrapped and caught up and stuff like that. So, that's often for me. And as you say, the devil is in the detail in the preparation prior to seeing the fish. So, if you're all set and then the fish appears, you don't have to worry about all that, or you are thinking about where the fish is, what it's doing, and then working with the guy to try and catch the fish.
Tom: So, I'm still trying to pull this outta you. When you're looking for a bonefish, what do you look for?
Jason: What do I look for?
Tom: Yeah. It's movement obviously. Is it color? Is it shadow? Is it a fin? Is it a tail? What are you looking for when you look for a bonefish?
Jason: All of the above. All of it really. It's a good question. I mean, I don't think there's anything specific because what's so unique about it is that you are faced with so many different situations. So, for us in Grand Bahama, we have some areas that are very dark bottom and a very dark fish. I actually find it easier to see the darker fish on darker bottom because they contrast more for me. A lot of fish can... So, I'm looking for on a more consistent brown bottom, I'm looking for a darker object because I know that's what it is. When you get into the lighter bottom areas, then you are looking at probably more for a shadow on the bottom than they're necessary a fish itself, because they tend to me, to camouflage far better in lighter bottom because they can change their colors, bonefish, so they adapt to the bottom structure.
So, I'm probably looking more for a shadow. on the lighter bottom. Whereas on the darker bottoms, I'm actually looking more for a fish, because the fish themselves, I think for certainly the years that I've done it, contrast much better. So, I actually pick them up much quicker on the darker bottom. And on the lighter bottom, you really have to sort of adapt. So, there's not one... And again, where you're fishing and the light and all that sort of stuff. It's not one thing that you can pinpoint and says that's the magic of doing it. It's actually learning to adapt and not fixate, "Well, when I was fishing here, that's what I was looking for because that's what the fish looked like. And now I'm here, it's different." Because they are comedians in some degree.
And there's also single fish and then there's also schools of fish and then there's twos and threes and they present different visual targets to look for as well. So, I couldn't say I have a magic wand that said that's what I do and that's what it is. I think I've always tried to remain flexible when I'm looking at stuff. And it's also knowing the areas and the bottoms. As guides, we all know where we're fishing, we know sort of what we're looking for. And there's also a sense of, I know where I think the fish will be in a particular area which is hard to often explain to clients, but if you've got a shoreline and it's a fairly consistent one single shoreline going up, then a lot of the time these fish are gonna be running down those shorelines.
So, if you focus on that specific area, you'd probably have more luck rather than looking out on the deeper edges or some areas where you have points. You're gonna have different areas where you are gonna see fish when you come to a point. Fish often come through points or sit on points sometimes. So you know sort of in this particular area, that's a good place to probably look. And then also the other thing to think about is tide because when tide comes in and around points, fish are inherently lazy. They don't wanna waste energy swimming in the tide all the time. They want to come with the tide, but they'll often sit on the other side of the tide on points, for example. So, it's just understanding, I guess it's a bit like trout fishing where they sit behind a riffle, I guess. I don't trout fish much, so you can correct me on that. And the fish wait and they can sit there and dodge in and out.
Bonefish in some areas that we fish do that sort of thing as well. So, it is the more I think about it, the more complex it becomes. But the basic thing there is to adapt to what you are looking for, the contrast on the bottom, and look for them basically. I think a lot of people just don't really look because you fish with a bonefishing guy, a lot of the time people are like, "Okay, I know he's gonna spot them for you, so I'll just wait to be told what to do." And then you go from there. So, I'm not sure if that answers your question, but...
Tom: No, good. No, that's good. That's fair enough. Fair enough. You made your point that you don't just look for one thing, you have to be flexible and adaptable. And then I guess if someone were fishing on their own without a guide, they were wade fishing, background is important, right? You wanna not try to have a hazy sky that you're looking into, but either a blue sky or shoreline where it breaks the glare and the reflections off the water.
Jason: Yeah. Absolutely. So, flat calm days can be even more difficult, and flat calm and sunny days can be even more tricky because it's like looking in a mirror, and then you have the water broken up a little bit where you have more contrast to do with that. I think the key with that is when you are fishing for that, it's actually to take your time and actually look, because there are more fish around you than you know and it's important that... A lot of people go too fast or whatever. The beauty of when you are waiting is that you are in the water. So, you can assess in front of you and take a bit of time to look at what's there and let fish sometimes come to you so you know certain points that you've eyeballed on the flat and then you've got a non-moving object and when something goes by you're like, "Ah, I saw something there."
In a boat, everything's happening a lot quicker because of the boat's moving. So, you've got those windows, 30-second windows where everything's got to line up and communication, seeing the fish and everything we've just talked about. Whereas with waiting, you can obviously, okay, I'll take my time to go to the flat. I think this is a likely area where fish may come through," and you just sort of slowly work your way up the flat and it's amazing how much more things you will see if you take the time to do that as you go forward, not way too quickly.
Tom: Yeah. I've always found I can see fish better when I'm waiting, even though I'm lower in the water because nothing else is moving. And when I stop, I can then detect movement a lot easier than I can from a boat.
Jason: Yeah. And also you can get closer to the fish. The fish are not aware of you with... I'm 6-foot-3 and I've experimented over the years as sort of the vision of bonefish, and I can tell you at certain areas I've been where I've polled and we've stuck and we've had schools of fish come in. They get to 40, 50 feet from the boat and they're like, "Ah, there's something finally going on now. I'm not sure." And then I've done that a few times and then I've sat down on the polling platform because they're sort of nosed in on a bank and I've watched the fish come to 20 feet. And then you catch one and stuff like that. So, they're visually they are... I mean, they're trained, their camouflage is to probably as much to stop them being attacked from above. So, they're pretty smart on that level.
So, being lower, obviously is a disadvantage at seeing, but the benefit is you can get closer to the fish. That's why it's probably important to take a little bit more time, because there's so many more bonefish around you than you actually realize a lot of the time. You think there's not fish there, even in three, four inches of water, and then all of a sudden one appears and it's like, "Woof. How did I miss that?" And that's so often the case. So, certainly when you're fishing twos and threes...with schools, generally they might see a tail flick out of the water because there's one floating. But for the single fish, which we sort of have a lot of here, you really have to take a bit more time with it because they're there, but you've just got to make sure you give them time to come to you.
Tom: Okay. Now, permit. You've done a lot of permit fishing and I know you love permit fishing. I always have more trouble seeing permit even though they're almost always bigger than the bonefish, but I have more trouble seeing permit than I do bonefish. Are there anything that can help someone who has trouble like I do seeing permit if they're not tailing or thinning or waking, but just in the water?
Jason: They are more difficult, and given their size, I struggle with them because you're generally, they're harder to see. Like I said, we see a lot of them on some of the darker bottom here. So, the contrast with them is really difficult. So, having really good light is important. And often because you are fishing deeper water, it makes it a little more tricky. In the deeper water and stuff, often you'll see the wakes, there's certain types of wake that you can pick. And you know, a turtle wake is more of a wider bow wake than a permit wake. And so, you can pick them out that way. Sometimes you'll see them floating.
But there is one I fished, funny enough, last week and I was first flat we stopped at, pulled up, and we were looking for permit. And I come up and within two minutes I see what I thought was a turtle. And I thought, "That's interesting. It's sort of moving a bit funny like a turtle," and couldn't quite make it out. And then swimming, it gets to about 60 feet, I think, "No, maybe it's a shark, I'm not really sure." And then it came in within about 45 feet, turned a bit, and I could see these big white things basically. And I'm like, "I wonder what that is." And as I saw that, the tail popped up, and it was probably one of the biggest permit I've ever seen here. But what I picked first was his white lips, and they got these big pink white lips coming at you.
And then I saw the tail and I realized it was a giant permit. We got a shot at the permit and threw out at it, and it turned to the side. And once you turn to the side... But this was, I don't know, it was 35, 40-pound point. It was a massive permit. I didn't really identify until it got within about 40 feet of the boat. And when it turned, it was the white lips that so many people would talk about that. And again, I can speak more from my experience here is because of the darker bottom. So, it is sometimes a little more tricky here. I fished a bit in Mexico and places like that, and often what I've picked out is the black side fin you can pick out.
So, when you see them, you'll see like a little black dot coming across in the distance, which is often something I've looked for when you're looking for them, because they can be so slippery and shiny and they contrast so they don't contrast at all really with the water. They are difficult fish to see. So, honestly, they are tricky. And that's a fish, really, you have to work at concentrating on because the opportunities you get in a day of permit fishing, four or five shots in a day is a really good day of permit fishing over eight hours, you've really got to concentrate. So, that mental part of it is important because obviously your brain has got to be turning your eyes to keep looking and to keep focusing on different areas and knowing specifically where you might see them, and just making sure you are constantly focused on that. So, that sort of mental aspect's quite important as well.
Tom: Okay. How about how about tarpon? If tarpons aren't rolling but they might be cruising, any tips on spotting them? I mean, they're so big, but they can also be pretty sneaky.
Jason: Well, they are. Tthe type of tarpon fish we have here is all on the dark bottom. So, the visual part of it is much more difficult for us here because the areas that we know we have them is really quite dark. Often when we fish for them it's more when it's calmer and in the mornings, but it's sometimes not just what you see, it's what you hear that will give them away a little bit, because they come up and they gulp air and they roll and you often hear that gulp, or sometimes you might see bubbles rising, things like that, in certain areas. We don't here have a lot of air where it's a big open white flat and you can see this big torpedo coming across and you this great big contrast here.
It's more like I say, you can hear them, you'll see them roll, but you're not generally from a sight fishing point of view, that's what you're looking for. I would say to some degree here, for us, it's more sort of a blind cast knowing that you've seen a sign of a fish, it's like following its trail and thinking, "Okay, I think that's where the fish was moving. That might be where they're hanging out." So, like I say, it's probably similar. Every area will present a different sort of visual challenge. And for us, it's slightly different because it is hard to spot them. And on windy, we generally won't fish for them, for us here unless we have some optimal conditions, and most of that is not necessarily sight.
But I often, like I say,I will sit quietly on the boat and it's what you hear often will give them away for us rather than necessarily what you'll see. And you'll see them roll, obviously, and so you know what they're doing. And then it's obviously important to pay attention which way they're rolling so you know which way to follow them rather than there's a fish, it's always gonna be there. So, again, it comes down to sort of concentrating and focusing on them and stuff like that.
Tom: And imagining where they're gonna be.
Jason: Exactly. Because even when you lose sight of a fish, you're on the boat, even with the guides, it's like if you followed him and you've gone through that process and the cloud comes over and the sun goes in, often you'll catch the fish. If you say, "well, he was moving that fast, he was going that direction," what I call a Hail Mary. Take a Hail Mary, put it where you think you should go. And then let the fly drop or fish it how you want to fish it. And boom, often, you'll catch those fish. Because also, when the sun goes in, it creates less shadow for the fish. So, when you throw a line, the fish is not necessarily seeing the shadow, which often spooks bonefish, is the shadow of the line. And therefore, you might be able to plunk him on the head or line him and he might turn around and come back and nail the shrimp or whatever you're throwing. So, there is an advantage sometimes to the sun not being out if you followed the process beforehand.
Tom: What do you look for? How do you see bonefish when you don't have bright sunlight? Let's say not all days are gonna be perfect and you're gonna have cloudy days when you go bonefishing where shadows aren't gonna be as distinct. What do you look for then?
Jason: Well, it comes down to then it's this sort of short quick fire sort of shots, really. And again, it's not a magic. I mean, if you're in the right tide phases, it's one of my favorite styles of fishing on the calm, cloudy days, is tailing fish, obviously. So, that gives you an advantage and stuff like that. And I love that style of fishing because as I say, you're not seeing the fish itself, you are seeing movement and tails and pushes and you're sort of reading the water in that way. When it's cloudy, a lot of the time, really the fish are closer to you, and it is a Hail Mary. Again, the fish will get closer to you because you are not throwing as much shadow.
So, having that shorter line on the rod tip is often a benefit because you can... I've had plenty of fish that eat with the leader in the rod tip and nail it because you are coming off and them, they haven't seen anything that's gonna make them a little nervous, and you'll often catch fish. But again, you've got to be ready and you've got to be looking closer, not necessarily looking further. So, it should be looking closer to the boat. And it's really then about being ready to go because instead of having a 30-second window of opportunity, yours is now gone down to 5, 10 seconds some of the time. Again, it all depends on conditions with wind and boat and stuff like that. So it's really working with the guide if you're on the boat, and again, concentrating and just scanning the water knit closer to you rather than further out.
Because obviously, if you're in slightly deeper water where there's no tails, you're not gonna see fish generally, unless you get contrast. I mean, if it's a stormy day and you've got the black clouds in the background and stuff, often you can pull that contrast out so you can see a little further in front of you. So, you should look further ahead. But I would generally concentrate closer to the boat, looking for something that stands out. And being high as a guide at that point does give you more of an advantage than if you are lower down.
Tom: Yeah. I know some of the best site fishing I've had has been on really dark days where you got a dark thundercloud in the distance or something, and boy, the fish will pop then. It's interesting.
Jason: I love it. I mean, I said for me, some of the best, most exciting fishings as a guide is on those cloudy windless days where you really are following a tip and trying to track them down through where they are, and then presenting a fly well in those conditions to fish that are often, as I say, because the light isn't there, they're less nervous, they're more comfortable because having the sun gives you an advantage. But then sometimes having no sun there is also an advantage because you can cast closer the fish. They don't see the shadows and stuff like that. So, again, it's so many different factors come into it, but sitewise, the movement on top of the water is what you're looking for on those cloudy days.
You're looking for that difference in the ripple. You're looking for the type of ripple you're gonna see, because Tthis is the difference between what a turtle will throw or a mullet or a needlefish against what a bonefish will push or a permit or a tarpon, for example. So, you are trying to read, it's like tracking, I don't know, a moose or something. Everything has a different sign and it's the same sort of deal on the water. And that's part of the fun of it when you're fishing, and that's what I call cloudy bones.
Tom: Can you describe the difference between say, a turtle and a needlefish and a bonefish as far as waking is concerned?
Jason: Yeah. I think turtles have a much broader, wider bow wake. So, you could normally pick them out pretty easily.
Tom: Except when they're giant permit, right?
Jason: Except when they're giant permit, like I said, with big white lips. Exactly. We all get fooled plenty of the time. And that's half the fun of this business is as you go out there, you're never gonna see the same thing every day. That's what's amazing about this. And then turtles will pop up. So, they have to have a ring-type weight that comes out. So, that's a sort of a difference. So, you look for that or you'll see sometimes a swirl, but we have a lot of turtles here. It's a pretty healthy fishery. So, you'll see those and you can generally pick those. A permit for example, is a much narrower wake which you'll often see consistently in deeper water. So, they don't come up and go down. Turtles will often go up, come down, go up, come down. Whereas when your permit's in mood for waking, he is waking and you can follow that wake. And that wake is often narrower and fairly consistent in direction sometimes a wide turn to the right and then straighten up again, a wide turn to the left. straighten up again.
And that sort of is an indication, that's the fish, he's trying to figure, wherever he is doing, he's feeding or he is on his way somewhere. That's the different, for example, than sometimes a shark, for example, because you can also be fooled by sharks. We get fooled sometimes here with the smaller sharks, we confuse sometimes with bonefish because we have some big bonefish here. So, often the way you tell that difference is that a shark or what we call a wagging tail, so when you're coming down, you'll see a tip of the tongue, you're like, "Ooh, that's a big bonefish." And you realize as you look back, you'll just see that tail glance from side to side, left, right, left, right. Whereas the bonefish is less obvious like that.
You'll see a dorsal pop up and come down, pop up and come down when he is feeding. So, you can pick those types of movement and types of... You know, you learn to see the difference with that. Needlefish are more like a shallower wake. They're gentle. It's more of a sort of they come up and plop and drop. And the same with jacks. They're smaller and they're less, what's the word for it? They're just a smaller type of wake. Whereas bones are, if you have a school coming at you, you can see that. You'll see five, six bow wakes coming up at you, it's pretty consistent, and you'll know that's potentially a school of bonefish coming at you.
Single fish are often, not necessarily waking, you'll get some coming down, it's more you are following. It's actually more of you see a pop up and disappear, and then it's five feet move to the left, pops up again, goes down, and then you'll see the dorsal pop up and go down and stuff like that. So, there you go.
Tom: And how about a school of mullet versus a school of bonefish? How do you distinguish between them?
Jason: We don't get a lot of mullet here. So, it's not like, I guess, when you go down to some of the keyes and stuff and some of the areas where they... But I think that's more of a sort of a plop, isn't it, than anything else. The guys who have more mullets in their fish would probably be better than me on that one, but as I say, we don't really have areas here with that. But mainly jacks we get here, and they are more sort of hunting packs and they're moving faster and they're more erratic. So, when you see those coming down, you'll see them pop up and bang, bang, bang and down and then move to the left. And then generally, they're moving to feed off fry on the top. But, you know, things like bonefish and permit when you see them visually on the top are more sort of methodical. There seems to be a pattern with them that you can sort of pick out.
Tom: Good tips. How about mutton snapper?
Jason: Oh, muttons snappers. I mean, they're probably even harder to pick, but they are, in some of the areas we can pick them. They will often sit on the bottom. But what gives them a way... We don't get a lot on the South side fishery for us, we have some areas and out on some of the more remote areas, we have them where they will actually tail. And their big giveaway is they have this big, gorgeous orange tail that pops up. But they're probably one of the smartest...have probably some of the best eyesight that I've ever seen on flats. And I've thrown flies at them and I'm 20 feet in the wrong direction. They can see it coming and they chase after it and nail it.
Equally, if they see you, they run the other way. They're fairly spooky fish. But what you often will look for them is they're sitting on the bottom waiting. And the occasions that I have come upon them, because they're not moving, it's often different contrast, what gives them away is their orange tail. And you can just see that little glimpse of orange, and again, depending on how big they are, you can see that little glimpse of orange. And that's what you're sort of on the wider sand areas. So, we don't really see them on the flats, more traditional style bonefish flats, we're more on the sand, ocean side style flat, you'll see them.
And they're cool fish, great fish to catch and hard to catch on fly, hard to sight fish, except for some of the ones we've thrown at where you do see the orange tail. But you've got to be really stealthy, you've got to be quite quiet about it and you present a fly really well because they are gorgeous to see that orange tail sort of staking in the light as they're they're looking, because they predominantly feed on crabs, I think a lot of the time when they're feeding on the flat. And sometimes we'll see them on the back of rays, like permit will on some of the areas. And so, you just chuck it on the back of the ray and hope that you might get a mutton or you might get a permit, you never know if light's not good. I mean, they're cool fish, but they are tough to see on the flats.
Tom: Oh, how do you tell a ray from some of the other fish? They're often in shallow water.
Jason: Again, they leave a trail. So, a lot of the time when we're fishing because they're a good sign on the south side, the bonefish will hang with them, with the rays. On the north, you're really looking for the permit. But what normally you are looking for first with them is that you'll see a mud trail. So, you are looking in the water and you see a narrow mud trail, you're like, "Okay, that's something," much like you'll look at a little dark spot on the bottom or a little puff of mud where fish is fed, rays leave a big wider where they're flapping on the bottom to pull out a crab, you follow that trail.
And depending which way the tide's going, you can obviously find them, follow that trail, and then you'll normally see a sort of a [inaudible 01:20:36] dark patch on the bottom, which is normally reflective of the ray. And then you're then thinking, "Okay, is there anything around him that stands out," the white lips I talked about or the black tail and stuff like that? And then you've got a target then to follow, because the fish will follow those. When you do find them, you know on a ray, a lot of the time they won't leave the ray. So, you know, that's certainly with permit, one of the best ways you can find them. You can stick with the ray and the permit sticks with the ray and you can... Christ, I've changed flies 20, 30 times following them, trying to catch one. And I've been lucky on occasion that when you get to about 20, I've caught one or two. With changing flies, for whatever reason, I don't know, I still haven't figured them out. So the rays are a good thing to find and often to follow when you're on a flat, follow that much, see where it takes you, you never know what you might find.
Tom: Finally how about cudas? Because cudas are generally, they sit and wait for their prey to go by, and so they're not moving. What do you look for when you look for cudas other than a long dark shape?
Jason: Again, cudas are like bonefish, they change their colors based on the bottom structure. So, I think with Cudas, you sort of come up... If someone said to me, "Oh, let's go and see if we can catch cuda," it'd be more the location I would go, knowing that I'm probably gonna find them there. So, I know that they like points, they're a predatory fish, they want to eat, they're looking for needlefish, bonefish whatever they can. So, they're gonna look for places where they can ambush. So, often, a lot of the time when you are finding things like cuda, it's much about knowing where to go to look for them, to finding them rather than... And you will find them accidentally on the flats, but it's more of a sort of a methodical sort of, "Okay, I know that's where I'm gonna see some. I know that's where they're gonna hang out. And when I get there, then I'm gonna position myself. I could think like a fish, I guess. If I was to ambush something, where would I want to be right now? And what would I be doing if I wanted to catch a fish here?"
And often you'll find them laid up along the side of mangroves on sort of highways where fish may move between on tides or whatever. And you normally, if you get lucky, you'll find them there a lot of the time. And our season for cuda is now, so you're dealing with a bit more wind now, but that's often best time now is the big cuda throughout the palm and start sort of coming up onto the flat. They're looking, they're hungry. So, it's normally a fun time.
Tom: It is. I love cudas. I love jacks and cudas. All right, Jason. Well, those are some really good tips. And I think the overriding thing here is you need to be flexible. You need to need to be actively observing, not passively. And you need to be flexible because they're gonna look different every day on every bottom, right?
Jason: Yeah. I mean, I think it's teamwork sight fishing. And I think the sight, your combined sight and everything you do collectively and how you communicate, whether you're both mentally in the game together, all those stars have to line up. And if they line up well and you've done all your sort of due process, you've got a damn good chance of catching fish. And I think it's not necessarily just about seeing the fish, it's about how you communicate with the fish, how you work together with a guide. And what I do, because we do it day in, day out, I've doing it for years. So, coming to the tropics is really important, how you set that up with your guide and sightfish together basically is the fun of this game. That's what makes it special.
Tom: That's a real team.
Jason: Absolutely.
Tom: All right. So we have been talking to Jason Franklin of H2O bonefishing, and Jason runs a wonderful operation I've fished with many times. You can go to their website or you can find them under the Orvis-Endorsed Operations in The Bahamas. And if you're there, you have to go to Bones Bar, right?
Jason: Absolutely. Come see us. And thank you, Tom. And Merry Christmas to everyone.
Tom: All right. Thank you, Jason. And Merry Christmas to you and the family.
Jason: And you.
Tom: All righty.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at