The Elusive Golden Trout, with Jessica Strickland
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week is Jessica Strickland. Jessica is the inland trout specialist for Trout Unlimited in California. And she really specializes in golden trout in their native range. And this is [00:00:30.242] a species that a lot of us, myself included, have never fished for or caught.
And I think if you haven't done it before, it's on most people's bucket lists. It's a very rare fish. It's native to only a small part of the Sierras in California, and they're beautiful. And I think that everyone should try to catch one. I know I'm going to try to [00:01:00.119] do it myself someday. So anyway, I hope you enjoy that. She talks a lot about the history and the current distribution of golden trout, pure strain, original, native golden trout in California.
Let's do the fly box first. And the fly box is where you ask me questions about fishing, traveling, tackle, whatever, and I try to answer them. Or you might have a tip you want to share [00:01:30.396] with some of the listeners. So anyway, if you have a question for the podcast, you can send it to me at
Let's start with an email. This first one's from Dan. "I really enjoy the podcast, particularly the fly box. I'm what [00:02:00.817] you would call a less-than-novice fly fisherman. I don't do it often, and the majority, 99% of my fly fishing takes place on the Lower Mountain Fork River in Southeast Oklahoma. I live south of the DFW Metroplex in Texas. I've done a little fishing in Colorado and plan to do more. But the vast majority of my fishing will be chasing the stock trout in the LMFR." Lower Mountain Fork [00:02:30.539] River. Ha, ha, got it.
"So to my question. I was gifted an Orvis Encounter 9-foot 5-weight for Christmas two years ago. Unfortunately, on a recent camping trip, my wife threw our camper chocks into the bed of the truck and turned my four-piece rod into a seven-piece rod. So I'm looking to get a new rod. I was thinking I would replace it with an Orvis Clearwater rod in the same 9-foot-5 weight.
I'm wondering though, given the type of fishing that I do mostly, would I be better off [00:03:00.761] to go to a 4-weight or even a 3-weight rod? I still have the Encounter reel and could use that for a 4-weight. But I don't mind buying a new reel either if the 3-weight is the better option. In your expert opinion, what rod should I go with? And what line would you recommend pairing with that rod for my type of fishing? I'm not scared away by the price of premium fly lines. So if that's what you feel is best, then I'm good with it."
Well, Dan, [00:03:30.199] the fly line part's easy. Actually, the rod's easy too. The fly line part's easy, and that would be the Orvis PRO Trout Line. It's what I use. I love them. They come in a textured line which will float a little bit better and will shoot a little bit better, but it makes a little noise in the guides, and some people don't like the textured finish, although it's not a very obvious textured finish but you can hear it go through the guides. It also comes in a smooth version [00:04:00.400] which some people prefer. So that's really up to you.
But I would go with a 9-foot 4-weight. I think the Lower Mountain Fork has a lot of midges and smaller flies and so do most of the Colorado rivers. And you can still throw a bigger fly like a Hopper or even a moderate-sized streamer with a 4-weight if you're not casting so far. And I think you're going to be happier with a 4-weight. So I would go [00:04:30.180] with a 9-foot 4-weight. I'd put that Orvis PRO Trout Line on it and I think you will be good to go.
Here's an email from Russ in Denver. "I've been fly fishing for approximately a year and a half and recently purchased a new 10-foot 4-weight Clearwater rod paired with a Battenkill Disc Reel that I'll be mostly using on small to medium-sized rivers and lakes for trout fishing. I purchased the rod and reel from an Orvis store and was recommended to put a 5-weight line on there, [00:05:00.259] specifically the Orvis PRO Trout Line, which is what I did. Is there a rule of thumb for overlining a fly rod when the rod length is greater than 9 feet? Thanks for the tremendous resources you provide for the fly fishing community, and would appreciate your thoughts on this."
So, Russ, you can overline almost any rod in the Orvis line and I think most rods in other lines. Underlining, you know, going to line size [00:05:30.356] later doesn't always work. You have to work too hard because the rod doesn't bend. But overlining a rod is going to make it bend a little bit more. And if you're a starting-out fly caster, it helps you feel the rod a little bit more. It helps you feel it flexing on your cast because it bends the rod more. And, you know, it probably won't get to the [00:06:00.199] maximum distance that you might with the line that it calls for a 4-weight, but it'll work fine.
I don't think there's any particular reason that you would overline a longer rod as opposed to a shorter rod. It's just that they may have seen you cast and felt that you might be better off with a 5-weight. So try that and eventually, you might want to go to a 4-weight. Once you get your casting timing down a little bit more and you really feel comfortable with your casting, [00:06:30.279] you might want to drop down to 4-weight, which will help you with delicacy in the smaller flies.
Here's an email from Michael. "Ever do any spey casting? My brother and I recently went on a guided trip on the Lower Deschutes in Oregon, spey casting for steelhead and nymphing trout. No steelhead, but lots of fat, strong trout. If you haven't been there, you need to go. It is one of the most beautiful places on our planet. I don't own a spey rod, [00:07:00.079] though one is on my Christmas list. Until then, I was wondering if can one effectively spey cast with a non-spey rod? I have a 9-foot 8-weight and was thinking of using it to fish for steelhead in our coastal rivers in Oregon. Not much room for back cast, which is why I was thinking spey casting. Besides, spey casting is really fun. Would a 7-weight line work on this rod?"
Michael, you can certainly do spey casts with a single-handed rod. I do them all the time. [00:07:30.259] If I'm swinging a wet fly, wet fly fishing, I love doing it. And I usually use the two basic ones, either the Snap-T or the Double Spey depending on which direction the line is hanging below me.
Simon Gawesworth wrote a book on fishing using spey cast on single-handed rods. So you might want to pick that up. And I'm sure there are some videos on the web. But yeah, you can definitely do it. I wouldn't underline that rod. I would stick with the [00:08:00.232] 8-weight, or you could even go with a 9. You want that rod to bend a little bit more if you're going to be using it with spey cast. So don't underline it. Don't go to a 7-weight. Stick with an 8 or even go with a 9 and try it out. It's a lot of fun with a single-handed rod.
Here's one from Andrew from Minnesota. "I recently started fishing with an 11-foot 2-handed switch rod for smallies [00:08:30.439] in the Upper Mississippi. I know the conventional wisdom if the welded loop on the fly line fails is to attach a piece of heavy mono with a nail knot and tie the leader to that. In my case, the failed welded loop is on my 10-foot intermediate tip on the floating that is fly line side.
What should I do here? The welded loop on the fly line is pretty small and I fear I might not be able to get the nail knot through it when taking the intermediate tip on and off with that repair. Thanks for all you [00:09:00.279] do, Tom. I've learned so much from the podcast, both from the fly box from you and your guests. If I get a vote, I'd love to hear more podcasts about fly tying in general and material selection and sourcing. The episode when you spoke with Steve Carew from Fulling Mill is one of my favorites."
So, Andrew, I think that in this case, I think if you put a nail knot in a piece of heavy mono with a loop in it, you're probably going to create a hinge in your [00:09:30.379] whole system. And what I would do is kind of an old-fashioned way of creating the loop. But there's a couple of ways to do it. One is that you can get a braided loop. You can still get braided loops that fit over fly lines and you can put that on top of your fly line and superglue it and maybe put a nail knot with 20-pound test over the end of it. That'll give you [00:10:00.240] a bigger loop and it'll be a little bit more continuous connection.
The other way to do it is to...it's going to be bigger than a Nail Knot, but it might work better is to create a slightly bigger loop by folding the fly line over and kind of snipping the end of your flyline to taper so that it fits flush against the standing part of the fly line. Fold it over and put two or three [00:10:30.159] monofilament nail knots over the top of that to hold it in place. And then you put a little superglue on there too.
Probably one nail knot with superglue actually would work, but generally, I sometimes do this with old fly lines and backing, and I fold the line over and put 3 nail knots with about 20-pound test on top of it. That's going to be an almost unbreakable loop. Again, it's a little clunky. You may have to just bite the bullet and buy a new head. I'm not sure, but try those [00:11:00.994] two things and see if they can resurrect that head for you.
Here's one from Jason. "I really enjoy the podcast from the fishing technical tips to the range of topics covered. There are rainbow trout stocked in a couple of slow streams near me in the winter. I know this may sound lame, but that's what's available to us. They can be fairly tricky to catch after a couple of weeks or so in the stream. [00:11:30.460] I've found that they typically like nymphs that are deep. However, I've also had decent success with slow-moving streamers. I'd really like to catch them on dry flies. Not sure if that's practical. I'd like to give a shout-out to my local Carmel, Indiana, Orvis store. They've been very instrumental in my fishing success. Would you share any tips you've learned that would apply to my scenario? Always willing to learn something new."
Well, Jason, I think what you've already been doing, particularly [00:12:00.139] as the water gets colder, is probably the best thing. You're not going to have any dry fly fishing in the winter unless the water gets low and clear and you get a warm day. Sometimes in those cases, you might see some midges or some small mayflies, but winter fishing is pretty much nymph and small streamer fishing. So fish them slow.
The important thing I think is to find the fish. And the fish are going to go into what's called overwintering holes where they've [00:12:30.139] got some cover and structure and they have deeper water and a little bit slower water. They're not going to be in stagnant water. They'll be in water with a little bit of current, but not much current. And they'll generally hide under structure in the wintertime and then they'll come out a little bit into the open and a little bit more into the current to feed at the warmest part of the day. And then they're going to go back under that structure [00:13:00.049] and they may be tucked away where you can't get a fly to them, but they're probably not going to be feeding much. So it's a matter of timing and a matter of finding the fish.
And I think that small nymphs and small streamers is probably the way to go. Dead drifted. You don't want to give much action to the streamers. You might want to give them an occasional twitch, but you want to kind of dead drift the streamers too. Or if you do fish them on a strip, fish it with a slow strip and then a pause in between. [00:13:30.479]
Here's an email from Spears. "Hey, Tom. I had a follow-up to a recent fly box question about streamers. The podcast was "Who Owns the River" with Beau Beasley. Kylie was asking if streamer fishing is similar to spin casting with a lure. You said, 'The beauty of fly rod is that you can manipulate your streamer even more than a spinning lure,' and went on to provide some great suggestions, including dead drifts, adding mends to change direction, [00:14:00.484] and varying your retrieve from fast to slow. You encourage trying all different ways of fishing a streamer.
My follow-up question is about introducing slack into the line when implementing some of these tactics. What is there to say or learn about the ability to feel the strike and set the hook with slack in the line? What should we be keeping in mind to keep the line as tight as possible? Also, wanted to say that the episode's main topic about 'Who Owns the River' was fascinating. And as you said, left me with [00:14:30.517] more questions than answers. I felt like there were five or more podcast episodes on different aspects of this complicated and important issue.
The laws and rules here in Colorado are murky at best, forcing a case-by-case situation. As you and Beau both stated, changing laws is about how we bring clarity and common sense. Would love to hear more about any ideas for angler advocacy in this area." [00:15:00.759]
Well, far as your second comment, Spears, there are organizations that do advocate for public access. The one that's national and probably the most powerful is Backcountry Hunters & Anglers. But I know there is public access organizations in Montana and Utah. And I imagine there's one in Colorado, but I'm not sure what it is [00:15:30.399] but a web search may be able to find it for you. Or if someone knows which organization Colorado is best for advocating for public access, let me know. I know it's been a really complicated issue in Colorado.
Now onto something a little more fun. Streamers. Yeah, you know, when you fish streamers and you have some slack line, you're most likely not going to feel the strike. And in this case, you want to watch your line. [00:16:00.539] If a fish takes your streamer, it's a pretty good-size fly and they're going to hit it usually pretty hard. And you'll see the line move or tighten. So yeah, if you have some slack there, I mean, try not to have too much slack. But if you're dead drifting, you're going to have a little slack.
Just watch the tip of your line. It's a lot easier with a floating line. With a sinking line, it's going to be very difficult. And with a sinking line, you probably want to stay in contact with that fly anyways. But with a floating line, you know, [00:16:30.262] throwing some slack in there sometimes can work and get the fly deeper, and just watch the tip of it. And if it twitches or straightens, set the hook and see what happens.
Caleb: Hey, Tom, this is Caleb from Santa Cruz, California. I recently moved across the country for a job opportunity in Western Massachusetts, and have been really enjoying the fishing out here, kind of near my home state of New York. It's been a great [00:17:00.019] way to spend my time and get to know the area.
But as the weather has been getting colder, it's got me wondering about a couple of things that I didn't have to worry about as much in California. That being, you know, what are the main strategies for fishing for trout as the weather gets colder, as we move into these cold and yeah, snowy Northeast winters? I'd like to hear a little bit about your strategies to approaching this and [00:17:30.839] what you do. And even if that's, you know, you go to different areas or you fish for something different or you go on fishing trips.
And my second question is a little bit more fun. I'm a traveling physical therapist, so I get to travel around and spend time, about 13 weeks, in different areas. So currently, I'm in a rotation in Western Massachusetts, and looking forward, I'm not exactly sure where to go next. So I [00:18:00.279] was just wondering what are some areas that you would like to spend, you know, three to six months in for fly fishing? Because I get the opportunity to work and recreate in these areas, I'm just curious.
You've probably done a lot more traveling than I have for fishing. What would be some areas in the United States that you would like to spend three months in just for fishing? All right. Those are my questions. Thank you for the podcast. [00:18:30.119] It's great. It's helped me through a lot of cross-country drives so far, and I look forward to your answers. Thanks.
Tom: Caleb, your main strategies, you know, in the wintertime in Northeast is probably going to be pretty similar to what I just talked about, and that's looking for overwintering areas, deeper, slower pools, and fishing nymphs and streamers deep. I will tell you that winter fishing in the Northeast is not as productive as it is in the Western United [00:19:00.220] States, and I think it's because there is as much food in our streams in the East and also the fact that we don't get as much solar heat. We don't get very many of those sunny days where the water warms up and the fish get active.
So you really want to pick your days, and, you know, a day that's been warm the night before, warmer than usual, and either sunny or a little bit of cloud cover, but [00:19:30.160] you want it to be on a warming trend rather than a cold front or something for the best winter fishing.
Regarding other places to go, God, you know, there are so many places I love in the Northeast that I can't even begin to play favorites. There's lots of great fly fishing in the Northeast, lots of diverse fishing from saltwater to bass to carp to lots of trout. [00:20:00.468] And I don't know where I'd want to go for three months. So I'm going to let you discover your own place.
Here's an email from Jacob. "Hey, Tom, I hear this come up a lot and often you advise not even bothering, which I totally understand and used to support. However, after seeing someone walking through spawning brook trout beds this weekend, I was unable to help myself and had to go talk with them. I utilize the strategy I use when giving tough [00:20:30.039] feedback to an employee, which is to overwhelm them with kindness and sandwich the feedback between compliments, or in this case, helpful info.
I walk up to them and said, 'Hey, are you open to advice?' And immediately, they said, 'Oh, my goodness. Yes, please. We need it.' From there, I gave them a few tips on presentation and spots to fish. I suggested flies and even handed over a few that worked that day. Then I said, 'Hey, do you realize that brook trout are spawning?' And they responded, 'Oh, yeah, we heard about that.' [00:21:00.160] And then I took the opening to point them out and remind them how long these natives have been here and how to avoid walking in their beds. They were so receptive to the advice and feedback. It was a great exchange.
Be kind. Want to generally help someone improve? Approach them with the genuine intention of helping and give them the benefit of the doubt. And they want to be good stewards of nature too. You'll find the conversations go better. But hey, if they aren't responding well to your initial kindness, [00:21:30.220] then don't bother with the correction feedback you planned on delivering. Hope this helps."
That helps a lot, Jacob. And that's a great way of approaching it. And thank you for that suggestion.
Here's an email from Jim from Eagle, Colorado. "My question is about felt bottom boots. Years before I started fly fishing, I had a pair of flip-flops that had patches of felt on the bottom. I did not know why until one day when it rained. The traction was incredible. I brought this up to some friends and one [00:22:00.079] who was a fly angler let me know that anglers use felt bottom soles for traction. Knowing how well it worked on my flip-flops, I was excited to see felt-bottom boots at my local wholesale store. I bought some and tried them out. It was not what I expected. I was slipping all over.
I had previously used rubber sole boots and did not even think of the river bottom where I fished as being horribly slippery. So I bought the studs and installed them. They did not sit below the felt but proud of it. This is [00:22:30.079] is downright dangerous. I stopped using them after just a few outings. This past weekend, a friend came out on the river with me. She had on the very same boots. Without me mentioning anything, she stated that they were a danger as well.
My question is, are there different grades of felt that I need to be looking for? Do I need to go at the felt with a grill brush to fluff it up? I'm generally good with rubber sole boots and will probably stick with those but I'd like to know in case I'm asked. I can tell people to steer clear or [00:23:00.039] what they need to be looking for. Or maybe it is easy as don't buy felt boots from the same place you buy yellow mustard by the gallon."
Well, Jim, I don't know. I don't know if there are grades of felt that are that different. I do know that a lot of us use felt soles and they do help on slippery rocks for sure. Felt soles are a little bit [00:23:30.118] harder to walk on wet grass and muddy banks. But I think that for traction on slippery rocks, felt generally works the best.
And whether you have rubber soles or felt soles, my advice is to install studs, but you need to install them properly. And I think I know what the problem was [00:24:00.160] with your studs and with your friend's studs. When you install studs, you want that metal to be barely peeking above the rubber. You've got to drill those in so that they're just barely exposed because otherwise, you're going to be skating on top of those studs, and that's not what you want. That can be dangerous. But if you install them so that they're almost flush with the rubber, you're going to have some really, really good traction.
And the same with felt. You can put studs [00:24:30.440] in felt. But again, you want those studs to be installed so that they are just barely flush with the surface of the felt. And not all felt sole boots will take studs because there needs to be a plate inside those boots to hold the studs in place. So you need to do your research and find out if there's a plate in the wading boot and then install those studs.
But I would say in [00:25:00.099] general, felt on slippery rocks is going to be better than rubber, no matter what kind of rubber. I think that studded rubber soles with the studs properly installed are almost as good as felt. And then what I personally use is the Orvis hybrid soles which have a felt bottom, and then they have an outer Michelin rubber [00:25:30.319] surface on the outside so that when you're walking on a trail, climbing up a bank, you have the grip of the rubber, yet when you're on slippery rocks, you have the felt. And then I stud them so that I really got a lot of traction no matter where I am. So hopefully, that's helpful.
Here's an email from Strait. "I really enjoyed your podcast [00:26:00.560] and have learned a lot from listening to it. I've never met you, but you seem like a very nice person. And I think that fly fishing should be a place where people can encounter others that are kind, polite, and respectful. It seem like an example that we could follow and emulate.
My question is about tipping guides. I have browsed old podcasts and did not find one that sounded like it addressed the question. I apologize if I overlooked one. I went on a trip once with three buddies, and after it was over found that each one of us had tipped the guide without the others knowing. The guide [00:26:30.256] ended up with over $750 in tips from the 3 of us for a 1-day trip. I expected him to be calling to see when we wanted to book another trip. So can you give me some advice on what is considered appropriate for tipping guides? Some advice on what is an adequate amount, and what should inspire a fly fisher to tip more for the great things that guides do would be helpful. Thanks."
Strait, it's pretty much the same as in a restaurant. [00:27:00.899] You look at the bill, and 20% is almost considered an average tip these days, 15% is a little on the chintzy side, and you can go up from 20%. But let's say you paid 500 bucks for the fishing day. So a $100 tip split 3 ways, or if you're fishing alone, $100 is a good tip for a guide. Obviously, [00:27:30.240] a little less if the guide wasn't so great and a little more if you had a fantastic day. It's generally the same as tipping anyone else.
Now, the one place you can get into problem is if you're on a trip and the guiding is included in the trip and you don't know what a guide day costs. And I'm always running into this when I'm hosting trips. In that case, you really have [00:28:00.099] to ask the outfitter or the lodge owner, hey, what's a good tip or what's an average tip? What's an accepted tip in this particular area? Because it could be somewhere else in the world where tips might be a little bit less, sometimes a little bit more, but always good to ask. But in general, you got a bill from the guide, you know what it costs, 20% is a good guideline. And make sure you talk to your friends to decide who's going to [00:28:30.138] pay the tip.
Email from...oh, I didn't get the name. Well, anyway, sorry. "Greetings from the East Kootenay and Elk Valley region of beautiful British Columbia. First, thanks for the informative and entertaining pods. I'm late to the party, having just discovered them about a year ago, and I'm doing my best to get caught up. So if you've answered this in a previous broadcast, I apologize.
My question is, when you're bushwhacking into a location with a rig rod, do you carry a tip forward, [00:29:00.646] as I do, preferring to see where the tip is going, or with the tip trailing behind you? I've heard arguments for and against both and find them equally compelling. So just looking for your thoughts. Thanks again."
Ha, ha, that's a good question. And, you know, I do both. You know, if it's kind of a gnarly place with a lot of raspberries or rose bushes or something like that, and [00:29:30.500] my tip's going to get caught on stuff, I'll carry it with the tip in front of me. If I'm just walking through the woods and it's fairly open and it's not too brushy, then I'll put the tip behind me. But, you know, I kind of switch around back and forth depending on how brushy it is. So you can decide. Either way works, and you can just decide based on the terrain how you're going to do it.
Another one where I forgot the name. Sorry [00:30:00.720] about that. Must have been not too diligent on that this week. "I have a podcast question for you, although this probably has been discussed before. Nevertheless, I will ask it. When you're tying small nymphs such as small Baetis or other mayfly nymphs, how important do you think it is to tie in legs? Do you think it actually matters to the fish, or does it matter more to us anglers?
My problem is that I just can't seem to tie in hackle fiber legs on small flies, at least any legs that look decent [00:30:30.180] or somewhat natural. I've not been able to do that much fishing this year because of the demands of my life, particularly the vortex of kids' sports and work. So fly tying has been my only way of staying involved with fly fishing. The lack of rain here in the Mid-Atlantic region also has put a damper on fly fishing opportunities in our local streams. Will you be continuing the online fly tying sessions this winter? Regardless, I try to listen to the podcast regularly and I'm always glad to pick up new information. Thanks to you and Orvis for [00:31:00.099] being a valuable resource for us."
So first of all, yes, we will be continuing the fly tying. We had some technical difficulties lately with streaming. And, in fact, I was in the middle of it for most of the day today without coming up with a solution. So we will be back, but I have to figure some hardware and software problems out first before we get back into the fly tying. [00:31:30.259]
Regarding your small nymphs, yeah, I don't think you need... I don't put legs on my really small nymphs. Smaller than say an 18, I don't put legs on them. There's a couple of things. One is that legs sticking out from the side retard the sink rate of the fly. And the other thing is that the legs on most of these smaller bugs are so insignificant. You know, in midge pupa, you can't even [00:32:00.334] see them, or caddis pupa. And then a mayfly, those little Baetis mayflies, their legs are tucked in along their body and they're pretty insignificant. I mean, the famous Pheasant Tail Nymph, which, you know, has just been considered forever the best imitation of a Baetis nymph has no legs whatsoever. But I don't think you need to put them on.
You know, if you really want a little bit of suggestion of legs there, what you can do is [00:32:30.400] tie a dubbed thorax and just pick the dubbing out a little bit. That little bit of fuzz sticking out will give you the same impression as legs. So I wouldn't worry about it. I think you're mainly trying to imitate a profile and maybe a color and, of course, the behavior of the fly in the water. So don't worry about those legs.
Here's an email from Mark from BC. "Hi, Tom. Thanks for your podcast. I look forward to it every week and have listened to as much of your back catalog as I can. I have a tip and a question. [00:33:00.666] For the tip, I have several reels with one and about a dozen extra spools, each with different lines. Over the years, it can be easy to forget which line is on each spool. To solve this, I use a Brother Label printer to create labels for each spool, indicating the type of line. I place the labels in inconspicuous spots on the spools and apply a thin layer of UV resin to ensure they stay put. This method makes it easy to identify the line on each spool, making line changes accurate and quick. [00:33:31.599]
My question is about matching the size of the hook to the size of the fly you tie on. If I'm trying to match the size of the hatch and what's in the water closest to a size 18 Walt's Worm, should I also tie this size 18 fly on a size 18 hook, or can I tie the same size fly, body bead and other embellishments, on a bigger hook like a size 14 or 12?
Looking at the fly quickly, it would appear small like a size 18, but would be on a larger [00:34:00.099] hook, leaving more of the shank exposed and covering less of the hook. This would allow me to use a hook with a bigger gap, maybe a heavier gauge, and possibly a larger bead. In Canada, we're limited to a single hook, so sometimes it's difficult to get the fly down to where it needs to be, and this might be a way for me to have a heavier fly.
I've heard many say that fish do not see or pay much attention to the hook itself. If more of the hook is visible, do you think it makes much difference to the fish, or do they see past [00:34:30.059] the hook and focus more on the materials tied to it? Now, I don't think I would be tying a 5-millimeter-long body on an 8 or 10 fly, but I hope you get the gist of what I'm asking.
So, Mark, first of all, thanks for the tip for labeling spools. It sounds like you have to be careful where you put those labels because if they're on the inside, they might wear and catch on the inside of the reel, but you may have a good place to put them. [00:35:00.260] What I do with both reels and spools is, you know, most fly lines today have this fly line ID marker on them, but you have to pull the line off the reel, and it's small type, and if you forgot your reading glasses, you can't see what it is.
So what I do is I take either a black or a silver permanent marker depending on the color of the reel. So, you know, if it's a shiny silver reel foot, I just write the [00:35:30.517] fly line on the reel foot in a permanent marker, and it stays put pretty well. If it's a black reel, of course, the black marker won't show. I use one of those silver or gold permanent markers, and then I can quickly find what fly line I need without pulling it off the spool and reading that little teeny-tiny writing.
And then if you do decide to change lines on that particular reel or spool, you can just rub that permanent marker off [00:36:00.139] with a little alcohol wipe and put a new size on it. So that works well for me. Yours probably works well, but I would worry about it catching on things.
Regarding the fly size, yeah, you can do that to a certain extent. The problem is that fish are sometimes selective to size, and if you're tying a little tiny, you know, size 18 Walt's Worm on a size 14 hook, [00:36:30.465] that hook is going to become part of the body, and it's going to make the fly look bigger. The fish aren't just going to zero in on that Walt's Worm part of the fly. They're going to be looking at the whole thing, right? They get a holistic view of it. So a real large hook may make them think it's a bigger fly and they may not take it.
So there are a couple of ways to get around that. One is to get some short shank heavy hooks, [00:37:00.835] like the... Fulling Mill has short shank heavyweight barbless hooks that... You know, it's like the size 16 is equivalent in gap to a 16 hook as far as hooking qualities, but the shank length is equivalent to about an 18. So you can tie, you know, one size smaller with those short [00:37:30.480] shank hooks. That's what I do. And you want to hook with heavy wire, and then you add the bead and you got a pretty good sinking fly. So yeah, I wouldn't go too big on that.
You know, for years they've tied low water hooks for salmon, which only use about half of the hook or three-quarters of the hook. But Atlantic salmon, you know, they're not feeding, so we don't know why they take those. But I think a hook that's too large on a trout fly [00:38:00.199] is going to just make the overall fly look too big. Well, that is the fly box for this week. Let's go talk to Jessica about those elusive golden trout.
Well, my guest today is Jessica Strickland. And Jessica is the inland trout program director for Trout Unlimited. And Jessica, you kind of specialize in golden trout, right?
Jessica: Yeah, you [00:38:30.079] could say that. Most of my work at this point in my life has revolved around golden trout for sure.
Tom: Okay. And, you know, it's something that I think is on a lot of people's bucket list. I know that one of the... I don't have a bucket list. I don't like that term, but one of the things that I really want to do someday is to catch a golden trout in its native habitat. I think that would be a really cool thing to do. And I know that [00:39:00.800] they can be caught, I know for sure in Wyoming, in the Wind River Range where they've been introduced. And I think in Colorado, are there a couple of places where you can catch a golden trout?
Jessica: Yeah. I believe there's places in Colorado as well. And then they've been trickled through various streams and lakes all around Sierra Nevada as well.
Tom: So let's [00:39:30.119] first talk about their native... No, before we talk about their native habitat and where they originally...let's talk about their genetics. They kind of look like...some of them kind of look like a rainbow and some of them look an awful lot like a cutthroat. What's the relationship, what's the ancestry of a golden trout as related to rainbows and cutthroats?
Jessica: Yeah, so there's a lot of question, I guess, [00:40:00.119] in the genetics of these and there's speculations on where they originally came from. But they're thought to be kind of the older lineages of rainbow trout. They're only native to a really small portion of the Southern Sierra on the headwaters of the Kern River. And it was one of the few places that didn't get glaciated in the last period. And so when many of the other inland [00:40:30.539] trout species of the Sierra Nevada died off, golden trout survives.
And so, you know, there's thought that maybe it was a naturalistfish at some point that got caught up in the headwaters. And then when waterfalls came and then they stayed there and speciated. And so there's different thoughts about how they were formed.
But there's three sort of sets of species of the Kern. [00:41:00.500] And I know we're focusing here on golden trout, but there's Little Kern golden trout, Kern River rainbow trout. And then the species we're focusing on here is the California golden trout. So there's three species that all come out of the Kern River watershed. Two of them, you know, the Kern River rainbow and the Little Kern golden trout to me look quite different than golden trout. [00:41:30.159] Golden trout are, in my point of view, the most spectacularly colored and beautiful of all the three species.
Tom: So there's actually two golden trout, there's a Little Kern golden trout.
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
Tom: And what do they look like as compared to the California golden trout?
Jessica: They're not as yellow. You know, they don't have as golden coloration in their lower belly. And, you [00:42:00.219] know, they're only found in the Little Kern River basin. So they have a really small home base. And, you know, they still kind of have the larger kind of parr marks. And they're also quite small. You know, these are all headwater fish. And they just have a lighter coloration, just not near as colored or speckled up as the golden trout are.
Tom: Okay. [00:42:30.739] And will they hybridize with the Kern River rainbows?
Jessica: Yes. So all of these species, you know, they're all variations of rainbows that can interbreed, yeah.
Tom: Oh, okay. So how do you keep them from hybridizing? Or do you even want to, because they're all native, right? So is there a way that they don't hybridize or a place where they don't hybridize? [00:43:00.352]
Jessica: Yeah. So the reason why they're speciated is because they've been separated at some point in time in history, right? So there was something that happened geologically, you know, a shift or a volcanic eruption, right, and it moved things around. And so they're not able to naturally connect at this point in time. So if they were to breed, it would be because they were moved. So, you know, [00:43:30.611] right now, yeah, these watersheds, even though they're all in the current, they're separated from each other.
Tom: Okay. Now, historically, had anyone tried to move these trout around with...
Jessica: Yeah, you know, these have been moved. There's records back to... You know, the first record I think of the golden trout being moved that they have is, like, 1870. So they've been moving these fish around for a really long time, yeah, [00:44:00.460] as we love to do, you know. And the more unfortunate piece, before anybody knew better, is, you know, stocking places with other species of rainbow. And now, for the most part, all of these populations have, you know, some sort of rainbow trout, you know, some point in time stocked rainbow trout genetics in them. Yeah. [00:44:30.599] So there's very few populations of any of these three species that are considered really genetically pure.
Tom: Okay. Okay. Is there any attempt to keep them separated with barrier dams or anything like that? Or are there natural barriers?
Jessica: Yeah. So the California Department of Fish and Wildlife, when they recognized the uniqueness of the species and, you know, how small [00:45:00.284] their watershed, you know, being so their native range is so small, they enacted a really large effort to separate them from species being able to move up into the system to reduce hybridization. So they built a series of barriers on the South Fork Kern to protect golden trout. So there's at least four-ish that are in various sections of the South [00:45:30.339] Fork starting around Monache, you know, above Monache Meadow that, you know, try and protect the more headwater reaches for golden trout.
Tom: When were those barriers enacted?
Jessica: Oh, geez, probably in the '70s.
Tom: Okay. Okay. So let's talk about the California golden because I guess that's the one that is the rarest and the most beautiful I guess, [00:46:00.599] most colorful. What was their historic range, and what is it now?
Jessica: So historically, you would find that... So, you know, the North and the South Fork of the Kern come together and it's now like Isabella, south of Kernville, some kind of the bottom tip of the Sierra Nevada. And the South Fork arm was originally the entire range [00:46:30.559] of golden trout. So they had, you know, the South Fork Kern River and then Golden Trout Creek, where the 2 watersheds that it was found, and those 2 together encompass about 600 square miles.
Tom: Okay.
Jessica: So, you know, now they're found, you could probably say above Monache Meadow is where you would find populations [00:47:00.460] that are, you know, managed as golden trout still because they're pure enough to be managed as golden trout. You can find them in other places, you know, and that's up in the Inyo National Forest. You can find them in little headwater streams in the Sequoia National Forest. So yeah, there are some few small headwater streams of the South Fork and then up above Monache Meadow on the Inyo National [00:47:30.420] Forest, there's, you know, decent populations which are all accessible. I mean, it's wilderness. You got to hike back there but accessible for fishing.
Tom: Now those couple other places you mentioned, were they introduced there, or were they naturally there?
Jessica: Naturally there, yeah.
Tom: Okay. So there's...
Jessica: It's just the populations now on the main stem of the South Fork of the Kern, you know, those are...it's like mostly rainbow [00:48:00.079] trout at that point, right? So it's these other littler places that have been isolated due to waterfalls or man-made barriers that still hold, you know, a relatively high genetic composition of golden trout.
Tom: Okay. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about the life history of these trout. I assume they're spring spawners?
Jessica: Yes.
Tom: And so...
Jessica: Yes. They... Oh, you go ahead.
Tom: No, go ahead. Go ahead. And sorry to interrupt. [00:48:30.557]
Jessica: Oh, no, that's okay. You know, they spawn in May, June-ish when, you know, runoff is happening and the water's cold. And they usually spawn about their third year of life. So, you know, it takes three years to get there and they're small fish. When they're spawning, they're only probably 3 or 4 inches in length.
Tom: Wow.
Jessica: Yeah. So they're not a very large species, but they're living in pretty small streams. So [00:49:00.473] they fit their habitat.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And how big will an adult get in its natural habitat?
Jessica: Oh, man. I guess, you know, that's a tough question thinking about how much they would naturally get if they weren't interbred with other rainbow trout species. But, you know, 12-ish inches would be my speculation. You'll find some in places that, [00:49:30.300] you know, are out of their native range that are growing in, like, really high productive lake areas that also have, you know, rainbow or the cutbows. They can grow much larger, you know, in the 20-inch range. And those are really cool still, really beautiful fish, but they're in, you know, non-natural places and mixed with other things.
Tom: Right. Yeah. And, you know, [00:50:00.519] what are their kind of the daily habitats and their food sources, and, you know, what do they do all day long?
Jessica: You know, they're like most trout, they love themselves some undercut banks. You know, we've done a lot of shocking up there in golden trout country in the last couple of years. And they really like undercut banks. They like, you know, in-stream vegetation. [00:50:31.840] Obviously, they like cold water, you know, like most other trout species when it starts getting hot out. And, you know, these are small streams and so the base flows get pretty low and they got to hunker down in deeper pools, which, you know, leads to the type of restoration work that I do now, which is treating those deeper pools so they have places to go to protect them in these situations where water's [00:51:00.570] dropping and temperatures are getting warmer.
So they're, you know, similar to other trout species in terms of how they utilize habitat. They've got a pretty small home range. They don't travel super far. And they have a short... I mean, the other reason they're pretty tiny is, you know, they're native only above, like 7,000 feet, right? So the majority of the places you find them are 9,000 feet and above. So really short growing season for food [00:51:30.820] and productivity.
Tom: Are they almost entirely insect feeders?
Jessica: Yeah, you know, there's definitely...it's, you know, mostly benthic macroinvertebrates, I would say. You got some terrestrial stuff potentially going on with grasshoppers, but yeah, I would say they're pretty heavy on the benthics.
Tom: And if they're like most headwater [00:52:00.480] trout, there probably aren't any or many baitfish in the environment. So they're not...
Jessica: No.
Tom: Do they eat their young sometimes?
Jessica: I have not heard that. I mean, I imagine it's possible if they're getting pretty hungry, but I haven't read...you know, any papers I've read I haven't read that being prevalent.
Tom: So they're almost...they're primarily invertebrate feeders. [00:52:30.309]
Jessica: Yeah.
Tom: Okay. And so you can fish for these populations, right? They're not protected. Anglers can catch and...is it catch and release only in these areas?
Jessica: No, you know, you can't fish for them. So they're not a listed species. You know, there was a petition to list them in the early 2000s, but a conservation strategy was [00:53:00.260] developed with all the major agencies signing on as partners to, you know, promise certain restoration actions to protect the species so that they wouldn't become listed. And so, you know, they remained open for fishing depending on where you are. You know, the fishing regulations are different. But you can keep them in many of the places you're fishing.
And most [00:53:30.179] folks that I know that are going all the way up to 9,000 feet to fish for something are doing it as part of, as you mentioned, a bucket list situation and are doing catch and release. But I can imagine, you know, part of their range, the PCT, runs through it. So there's hikers, there's a lot of hike. That's probably the heaviest usage of activity in what's most [00:54:00.199] actively their home range now. So, you know, there might be consumption happening, right, by long-distance hikers, but I can't imagine that's super prevalent either. So I would say they're largely pretty coveted and people try and put them back when they can.
Tom: Yeah, I would imagine. What are the regulations where you can keep them? How many fish, and is there a size limit?
Jessica: There's no size limits. [00:54:30.079] I believe the majority of their range is standard rags because, you know, take five in California.
Tom: Five. Okay.
Jessica: Yeah.
Tom: So they're not super protected, but I guess they're protected by their remoteness.
Jessica: Yes. And that is kind of the theory behind it. There used to be more stringent regulations above which is what's called the Johnsondale Bridge. That's kind of the key point of where, [00:55:00.451] you know, people would think about fishing up above that location for any of these three endemic species. And so there used to be much more stringent regulations. I think it was something like two and to keep two but there was a regulation simplification process that the state of California went through a couple of years ago and they removed a lot of these protections for the high mountain populations of inland trout.
And, you know, [00:55:30.299] in our discussions with CDFW, they really felt that it is sort of de facto by location that these pieces are protected in the winter time, they are protected during their spawning season for the most part. And, you know, I think that that makes sense to some degree. And, you know, these places are in wilderness and so the access roads to get them are snowed in starting in November, whatever, right? So you can't get to most of these places in the winter time [00:56:00.900] regardless, and then you can't get back in until late May, early June.
Tom: Okay. Yeah. And are they done spawning by then once people can hike in there?
Jessica: Yeah. The study that I've seen is June 15th is kind of, like, around, you know, the later time that'd be towards the end of the spawning time. So there might be a little bit of overlap there, but, you know, depending on where you are, [00:56:30.361] there's protections around the state for various species that will say you can't start until after June 15th or July 15th to protect these, you know, endemic inland trout species. California has probably more endemic inland trout than any other state in the Continental U.S. So a lot of different species that have this, you know, high mountain situation going on. So that's a common regulation. They'll set it back into the summer a little bit to protect spawnings.
Tom: Okay. Is that [00:57:00.144] the case for these streams?
Jessica: It depends on where you are. Yeah. Some of them have...yeah, they've got different regulations depending on where you are.
Tom: Well, if most people aren't keeping them it probably doesn't really matter anyway, right, because they're releasing them.
Jessica: Yeah, exactly.
Tom: Now, tell me about the work that you and TU have done in these areas. What have you done to help protect them and keep them from being listed? [00:57:30.290]
Jessica: Yeah. So back when... So TU was actually the entity that submitted the petition for listing, it was before my time, but when the conservation strategy was developed, a group of volunteers was formed around that same time called the Golden Trout Project, and that was a partnership between California Department of Fish and Wildlife, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Forest [00:58:00.099] Service, Cal Trout, and Trout Unlimited. And they all worked together to just enact a wide variety of volunteer-led projects. Every summer would be monitoring or removal of invasive species or putting up fencing to protect from grazing.
And so that group, the Golden Trout Project, large of that was the... By the way, the large of that, portion of that was funded by Orvis from what I understand, [00:58:30.199] of getting that group kind of going. And so those were kind of the initial steps that this group took. And that was largely the... You know, TU is a TU South Coast chapter, and a fellow named Howard Kern is a member.
And then I came on board TU in 2013 and I was involved in [00:59:00.360] forest land management planning. And so I worked at that time to work on better land management regulations and language that would protect the species and also kind of configuring designated boundaries that might have higher protections than others based on where species were present, what's now called conservation watersheds.
And in that, I spent a lot of time working with the land management agencies, which is the [00:59:30.219] Inyo and the Sequoia National Forest are where the two places their range is within. And talking about restoration. And we all kind of worked together to take some assessment work that had been done over the last several years and identify priority places that seemed like the streams were downcut to a level where places that should be perennial were coming more intermittent or ephemeral.
And so [01:00:00.440] trout were losing stream miles. They were losing this headwater habitat. Water was getting warmer. There's algal growth because of high nutrient loads from grazing. And so we started identifying places to do some restoration work. And considering most of the ranges in wilderness area now, you know, you're pretty limited in the type of work you can utilize in wilderness-designated areas because you can't have any mechanized [01:00:30.350] equipment, right?
Tom: Right.
Jessica: Yeah. So it's hand-built stuff. So, you know, what could we do by hand? And so we started looking into this practice called low-tech process-based restoration, which folks might more commonly hear the term, you know, beaver dam analogs. And we started installing. You went through all the planning and NEPA and permits to, you know, get all [01:01:00.320] of the key areas that we identified for the first kind of restoration phase through planning and shovel-ready.
And about two summers ago, we started hitting implementation pretty heavy, and, you know, bringing teams of folks out into the wilderness to construct these, you know, various features most commonly known as...you know, the popular one being a beaver dam analog. So that's what we're doing right now is hitting the [01:01:30.300] stream, meadow restoration pretty heavy.
Tom: So tell me exactly how you make a beaver dam analog.
Jessica: So what you would do, you know, it's all native material for the most part. You know, you gather local pine and you chop it up. And like I said, we can't even use chainsaws. We have to hand-saw everything. And so you're chopping up some [01:02:00.199] bigger conifers and some willows where you have them. And most of those places, you know, it's degraded to the point where it's actually sagebrush in the meadow versus willow species. So you can even use sagebrush and such.
And, you know, you stuff it into the creek into a way that can slow water down, and slowing that water down raises the water table almost instantaneously. So where you might've had [01:02:30.139] a couple of inches of water, you now have a meter of water, and that then more slowly percolates downstream. So it allows for more interaction with groundwater, which is cooler. So it cools water down. It creates those deeper pools which creates cooler habitat and more hiding hat, you know, more refugia, right? Like, these places are pretty...these meadows are super wide open. The water is crystal clear. And so it just allows more, you know, hiding habitat [01:03:00.539] for fish from, you know, avian predation and such. And so the intent is just to, you know, stuff the stream with material to stop the water and slow it down.
So yeah, you know, the only thing we bring in I would say that's not from onsite is posts in some places. You know, we'll bring in non-treated wood to post some of the structures in place to help [01:03:30.900] maintain stability. So, you know, this summer, for example, we had mule trains, you know, 20-plus pack mule trains of mules bringing in something like 2,000 posts for us.
Tom: Wow.
Jessica: Yeah. So yeah, it's quite the adventure.
Tom: And so you literally pound stakes into the stream bed to form these, and then do you cross weave [01:04:00.320] willows and stuff around them?
Jessica: Yes, yep. Exactly.
Tom: Do you pack them with mud like the beavers do?
Jessica: We do, you know, and some of them kind of depending on the intent of the structure, we will use, you know, local...the in-stream sediments and pack it in the upstream end of the structure itself to help stop the water. And another type of structure that is often built is called a post-assisted log [01:04:30.239] structure, which is pretty similar to a BDA in that it's, you know, material put into the stream and woven together but it's not packed with any hard material and so water flows through more easily. And that's for places where you're not really looking to impound water. You're just looking to add more habitat, more structure, and, you know, allow for more water to flow through. [01:05:00.019] So those are kind of the two different types of structures that are primarily built out there.
Tom: And I imagine you get some natural debris that piles up against this as well, right, you know, when branches fall in and trees fall in.
Jessica: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. The purpose of the structures is to capture things as they go down. You know, what's happened in most of these systems, you know, previously it would be kind of the meandering [01:05:30.639] stream that's picturesque, right, where you got water up to the top of the water table where there's the green grasses, a nice winding stream through a wide open meadow.
And what's happened over time with soil loss, the streams have become completely in size. So they become channelized, they straighten out. And, you know, where water, where it used to sit all the way to the [01:06:00.127] top of the bank, now it's down to a couple of inches and there's 3 feet of bank exposed, right? So water just shoots through that like a fire hose during runoff versus getting moved out into the floodplain. And what we want to do is we want to stop that water, move it out to the floodplain so that it percolates into the groundwater versus just shooting right out of the system.
Tom: Yeah. And it cools it down when it goes through the ground, right?
Jessica: Exactly. [01:06:30.900] Yeah. And so then it slows it down and it keeps it in the groundwater table to, you know, hopefully, increase late season base flows. Like, that's one of our primary goals is... One of the biggest impacts we've seen to these high elevation streams or really anywhere now is, you know, late season base flows are a lot lower than they used to be. Most places are, you know, dammed and so they've got less water coming out later in the season. And so it's hotter. [01:07:00.059] And what we're trying to do is just keep the water in the stream in that late August, September timeline.
Tom: Okay. And you talked a little bit about land use practices. Is there grazing in the area of some of these streams?
Jessica: There is. You know, the situation that we're in now is a result of prior to forest service establishment. You know, in the 1800s, there was something like 200,000 [01:07:30.519] head of sheep that roamed the current plateau. And those sheep just demolished the vegetation. And there was a huge shift in these meadow systems somewhere around 1840. And so that's when they've been able to kind of determine based on soil sampling and stuff where a lot of, you know, these meadow floodplains totally shifted.
And once the Forest Service was established and more formalized grazing management [01:08:00.718] practices were put in place, sheep were taken off. It's cattle now and it's reduced numbers of cattle. And probably I would say half of the current range is currently grazed. There's a couple of closed allotments that closed about 20 years ago and the other ones are still open. And it's a short-season grazing, right? They come on in June-ish [01:08:30.659] and the cows need to be out by September 31st, maybe even July. So it's just a short, you know, two, three months season that the cows are out there, right, when the grass is green, right? So there is still grazing. And it's an interesting topic. It's an interesting situation, right?
Tom: I can hear you becoming careful. [01:09:00.611]
Jessica: But the reality is, and this is why I always have a bleeding heart for the Forest Service, the Forest Service is a multi-use entity. Their mission is to promote all of the possible uses of this public land and protect those resources, right? So they've got such a diverse set of interests and uses that they need to try and provide for, grazing, logging, mining, recreation, angling, [01:09:30.490] hunting, boating. There's just so many things they have to try and squeeze into their management plan that are really conflicting interests in a lot of ways. And so it's a really tough landscape to try to manage for all of these people's interests.
Tom: Yeah. Now in the areas where it's grazed, have you been installing fencing to keep the cattle away from the stream bed?
Jessica: Most of those places already had [01:10:00.239] some sort of fencing in place. You know, Monache Meadow is probably the most popular non-wilderness place to go to fish for golden trout that you can access by vehicle. And most of that corridor is fenced. And then once you get into the wilderness area, there are some places that have some temporary electric fencing that goes up in the summertime. And then some [01:10:30.560] really sensitive wet areas are selectively fenced. And outside of that, being that it's wilderness, you know, they try not to do a whole lot of heavy fencing and just move cows around more. So for the most part, in the wilderness area, there's not a ton of fencing. In the non-wilderness area, the river corridor is pretty heavily fenced.
Tom: Okay. I didn't realize that you could graze cattle in a wilderness area. That's permitted? [01:11:00.272]
Jessica: Yes. It is one of the activities permitted, you know, according to the Wilderness Act.
Tom: Okay. Okay. Now, what are the major predators of these fish? Because you're trying to protect them, give them undercut banks and deeper water and place to hide. What are the major predators that they have up there?
Jessica: I mean, birds of prey. That would be my most solid guess if I could say that's their [01:11:30.164] biggest predator. You're so high up. You know, there's not a ton of other species that are going to eat fish to a degree that's going to impact the species. I mean, there are bear out there, but they're such small fish. You know, and I imagine, you know, maybe there's a few other terrestrial mammals that feed on golden [01:12:00.279] trout to some degree, but I would see birds of prey were probably their biggest predator.
Tom: And what types of birds of prey are there up there in these high-up...these...
Jessica: There's goshawk. I'm trying to think one else. Now, goshawk is probably the biggest one that I can think of. Because it's such high elevation, like I said, where we're working is 8,000 feet and above, there's not quite [01:12:30.699] as many species as you would see lower elevations. So, you know, predation definitely isn't what's impacting the species right now. Their biggest issue is they've all, for the most part, been hybridized with non-native species. There's very few, you know, remotely genetically pure populations remaining available.
And there is [01:13:00.100] this habitat loss piece, which is huge. And, you know, angling pressure, I mean, I doubt, I wouldn't even call angling pressure a real issue. So, you know, in many places, and there's theories on why this is happening, but there's almost an overabundance, like Mulkey Creek, for example, which is in the South Fork Kern, but it's outside of [01:13:30.500] native range, but it was fish re-bucketed over in the 1800s. It's got something like 3,000 fish per mile, which is an overabundance of fish.
And so, you know, I think that there's theories that because of all of the erosion, there's, like, an overabundance, potentially, of spawning gravel. So I think fish [01:14:00.317] can actually spawn more than is natural because there's so much in the way of spawning gravel. Not everybody believes that theory, but that's one theory that's out there. But then there's not enough food for the fish to get big. And so it's a ton of really small fish.
Tom: Okay. You fish for these guys, right? What's it like fishing for them?
Jessica: You know, [01:14:30.292] it's interesting. Kind of depending where you are, I've fished in places for them because the water is crystal clear, right, and you're in wide open areas. Many of the places have been grazed and so there's not a ton of willow cover in a lot of the area. And so you're pretty exposed. They're super spooky. It can be difficult.
And then in other places that are harder to access, I mean, [01:15:00.600] I've been where it's a fish every cast and you could probably have any fly, it wouldn't matter, and you'll get a bite. And so it's locationally dependent in my experience. I've been in places where it's like, "Oh, man, they're so spooky. This is a struggle." But in other places, I'm like, "Dear God, I think I could put anything on and I'll take it." So it's almost comical.
And I will say [01:15:30.039] every time we pull this fish out... Every season I come back. I've been gone for the winter and I go back in the fieldin the summer. I'm like I forget how beautiful and colorful they are. I mean, it's almost shocking every time you see where I'm like how colorful they actually are in real life. Pictures don't really do it justice.
Tom: Yeah, I imagine. I imagine. Wow. Now, so if someone wanted to go and try to fill that bucket list, you said there are places you can almost [01:16:00.340] access it from the road, from driving?
Jessica: Yeah. So, you could go into Monache Meadow. You might not get the most colored-up versions of them. There'd be more rainbow trout variety than anything. But you can access those down the... You get in through the Monache Jeep Trail, which it's a tried and true Jeep trail, 4-by-4 road. But you can drive right into the meadow, which the South [01:16:30.199] Fork Kern runs right through the meadow. And it's a huge meadow, something like 5,000 acres. So a lot of stream miles run through that meadow there. And so you can drive right to that location.
The other location would be at a Lone Pine. You can go right at a Lone Pine and then that'll put you up to... You can go up to Horseshoe Meadows, and that gets you to the Cottonwood Lakes trailhead, which is where a lot of people access Golden Trout Wilderness from. So you can [01:17:00.079] park there and camp there. And golden trout actually are in Horseshoe Meadow Creek right outside of the campground there. That is a non-native population. It's right over the ridge line. That's actually a headwater tributary to the Owens River. So it wouldn't be within native range, but that would be right out of the parking lot there.
Tom: And then to get to the more remote areas, it's a long hike, right? [01:17:30.538]
Jessica: Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, 4-ish miles, I'm trying to think. You know, maybe more like 4-ish miles to get you into golden trout country. If you were coming in South from Monache Meadow, you could come in from the South and get somewhere within 4 miles and no crazy steep passes. Coming in from the North, you know, a lot of people like to go [01:18:00.274] into Big Whitney Meadow, which is on Golden Trout Creek, because then you're fishing for golden trout on Golden Trout Creek.
And the fish of Golden Trout Creek tend to be really pretty, really colored up. And I believe that's about 8 miles in over a pretty gnarly pass. And so, you know, that one's a bit more of a hike. But that's probably, you know, your best bet to get into somewhere where you're in a really cool place, you're in a really huge meadow and the fish are really colorful. [01:18:30.519]
Tom: I'd hike it.
Jessica: Yeah, you could do it.
Tom: I'd do it. I could do it. I better do it before I get too old, though.
Jessica: Yeah. You can always get packed mule in too to carry your stuff for you.
Tom: I think I'd rather walk. I don't get along with horses and mules that well. I think I'll walk. Well, Jessica, thank you. This has been really great. And I [01:19:00.300] learned so much about golden trout that I didn't know before, and appreciate all the work that you and Trout Unlimited have been doing. And it sounds like the future is bright for this population of native goldens.
Jessica: Well, thank you. You know, we're putting a lot of effort into it. And, you know, the California Department of Fish and Wildlife is, you know, prioritizing it at the state level, I would say. And so [01:19:30.199] a lot of folks are understanding that these high mountain places are under a threat. And so everybody's working hard to figure out what you can do to help.
And every summer, I will say, you know, we try and host some sort of volunteer opportunity, whether it be coming out and helping us do electrofishing or coming out and helping us do some sort of fence projects or help [01:20:00.720] with the actual construction itself. We try to host a couple of volunteer opportunities every summer. So, you know, I can point people to our page where those will live. And we'd love to have folks come out with us.
Tom: Yeah. How would people find those opportunities? What website should they go to?
Jessica: Yeah. So our TU website has a Priority Water page, which, you know, we're working on building out the [01:20:30.119] Golden Trout page right now. And in the next couple of weeks, we'll have a link up. You know, this summer is over, so our opportunities are done now. But we'll have a link up for next summer. And that will list all of the different options over the time for us. And then we'll also post opportunities for our partners like Forest Service and CDFW. They do trips as well, and they're always looking for volunteers. So we'll post everybody's options up there on the TU [01:21:00.500] then Priority Waters page. And then you'll click down to Golden Trout because it is one of the Priority Waters.
Tom: So it's in the tu.org national website.
Jessica: Yeah, tu.org and then Priority Waters. So you can navigate from there and find golden trout.
Tom: Okay, great. Well, I'm sure some people listening to the podcast would probably want to come and help.
Jessica: Yeah, yeah. You know, sometimes we even do the packed meal thing. You don't even have to carry your own backpack. They'll carry it in for you. They're doing everything.
Tom: Okay. All right. [01:21:30.199] Maybe I'll sign up this year. All right, Jessica.
Jessica: Well, thank you for having me. I really appreciate the time. Thank you for the hard questions. It makes me...
Tom: They weren't that hard.
Jessica: ...go back and look at what birds are up there. I'll have to go back and check that out.
Tom: Yeah. Next time I talk to you, I want to know what avian predators are up there.
Jessica: Yeah, exactly.
Tom: All right.
Jessica: Well, thank you so much.
Tom: Okay, Jessica. Thank you. [01:22:00.321]
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment, send it to us at