Secrets of Trout Fishing in Spain, with Ivan Tarin
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast. In this week's podcast, we're going to be going to Spain, and we're gonna be talking to Ivan Tarin of Salvelinus Fly Fishing, who is the Orvis-endorsed outfitter in Spain. And we're gonna learn about what kind of fly fishing opportunities [00:00:30.550] there are in Spain. And you probably normally don't think of Spain as a trout fishing destination, but they have excellent fishing for native brown trout both in lakes and in tailwaters and in freestone streams. And it's a beautiful part of the world. And if you're in Spain for a vacation and you wanna take the opportunity to do some fly fishing there, I would take a ride [00:01:00.009] with you because it sounds like there's a lot of accessible water in Spain. And, also, if you wanna take just a strictly fly fishing trip, you should look up Ivan's operation on the Orvis website. I'm actually gonna be hosting a trip to Spain to fish with Ivan in late September. That's on the Orvis website. And last I looked, there were two spots open, two spots for two anglers open. So [00:01:30.200] if you're interested, those spots may not last long. So you may want to take a look at that.
I've also got some other trips coming up. I'm going to Iceland in mid-July. That's coming up real soon. That one has a couple of spots left. We have one spot left in my Argentina trip in late January of 2026 to Tecka Lodge. I believe we have one spot at Magic Waters in [00:02:00.170] Chile next March. And then, just announced, I don't think they're on the website yet, but keep your eye out for them. I've got two bonefishing trips in April, one to Swain's Cay and one to H2O Bonefishing, both operations I've been to many times and I really love. So, anyway, check those out. Contact Orvis Adventures if you're interested in any of these trips.
The other thing you can look at [00:02:30.134] in Orvis Adventures is the advanced schools that Orvis offers. You know, you learn something when you go fishing with a guide, for sure, but maybe you wanna really up your game and concentrate on a particular aspect of fly fishing. And if you look on the Orvis website, we've got advanced schools. One is a Lowcountry saltwater school. One is an Everglades fly fishing school. One is [00:03:00.104] a trout school at Madison Valley Ranch. There's a Belize school for bonefish, tarpon, and permit. There's a steelhead school. And then there's an advanced casting school. So if you really wanna tune up your casting with real individual instruction, that's a great place to go. So there are lots of advanced schools available for you to improve your skills, and more to come in the future.
All right. Before we get to Ivan, [00:03:30.104] let's do the Fly Box. And the Fly Box is where you write in questions in an email, and maybe you might attach a voice file, and I try to answer your questions. Or if you have a tip you wanna pass on and I feel it's valuable to the listeners, I will read your tip. And you can send your questions or tips to
First question is from Jacob. "I've learned so much in the past, last year, fly fishing. Probably spent 45 days on the water, even if that's just 90-minute sessions for bass after work last year, and much of that was for trout in highly pressured [00:05:00.295] trout stream. I used to fish exclusively dry droppers as I thought this was giving me the best opportunity to catch any fish. Last year, I became much more confident detecting very subtle strikes on either wool or more sensitive indicators. I went from catching a nice fish, 14 inches-plus, rainbow or brown, every third trip to expecting at least one of those every time out, although I still get skunked. The problem is I just don't feel confident [00:05:30.009] fishing straight dries to these fish. Peak season, you'll catch brookies all day and dries, which is nice. However, I can't seem to get browns or bows on a dry unless there's something to juice the situation, like big hatches or fishing at dawn and dusk. It's to the point where, when I see rising fish, I get a little bit disappointed because I just don't expect to succeed. I know you know this river and how pressured it is. Do you have any advice for me to get more on dries, or do I just need to commit to it the way I did [00:06:00.220] with indicator fishing? For context, my casting is solid, and my line control is good. I've learned to focus on short casts and drifts with good control rather than hero cast covering all the water. I know I'm not spooking them because they keep eating not just my flies. Just not my flies."
Well, Jacob, you know, it's interesting that certain species of fish seem to be more surface-oriented and will come to a dry more often. [00:06:30.500] Typically, rainbows, and especially cutthroats and brookies, are very surface-oriented. Brown trout tend to wait for a heavy hatch. Brown trout tend to take advantage of the situations when there's a lot of food close to the surface. And so it makes it more...they're a more efficient feeder, I think, than the other species of fish. Makes it more efficient for them to feed near the surface. And I think you're [00:07:00.019] doing everything right. It sounds like you're doing everything right. And, you know, just don't expect to catch fish on dry flies every day. It's almost a dessert on top of the day-in-day-out fishing that we do. And so you just need to take advantage of the situation. You need to be flexible. And, you know, if you see fish rising and you don't catch them, well, often, it's not so much the fly pattern [00:07:30.069] as it is the angle that you cast to the fish. So try different presentations. Try straight upstream if you can. Try getting upstream of the fish and casting downstream to them. Try a lighter tippet. There's all kinds of things you can do in addition to trying different fly patterns, because sometimes it's the approach that makes all the difference in the world.
Here's one from Ben from Northern California. "I have a question regarding jigged fly patterns. [00:08:00.435] My understanding is that these are designed to ride hook point up to reduce snags on the bottom. This would mean that the top half of the fly is less visible to the fish in favor of the underside. For simple ESN-style flies like Perdigons, this would have no effect. Not for jig versions of flies such as Pheasant Tail or Prince Nymph, it seems like it could dramatically alter what you are presenting to the fish. Does this matter? I know that invertebrates tumble through the drift in all kinds of orientations, [00:08:30.305] but it's just something that I've wondered lately."
Yeah, Ben, you know what, I've wondered that, too. And, you know, the flies that are hatching or are drifting in the current do tumble a lot, and they might be upside down or right side up or sideways. They're gonna be out in all different orientations. So, you know, there's always the question with a jigged fly, do I put the wing case on the bottom or the top? It makes sense to put it on the top because [00:09:00.144] that's the way that the nymphs might be oriented. But again, they do tumble. So, honestly, I don't think it really matters what side you put your wing cases on, even though it's gonna ride hook point up, because fish see them in all different orientations. So I would experiment with both, but it's not something I'd worry about terribly.
Here's one from Ken. "Why can't I catch a fish on a Pheasant Tail? Let me [00:09:30.034] explain further. I spent years fishing in New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia, and personally, I can't buy a fish on a Pheasant Tail Nymph. I've tied them in various sizes, beaded and unbeaded, and even different variations of them. In several situations, they seem to match the mayfly nymphs in the streams perfectly, and still nothing. Admittedly, I fish them less and less because I have no confidence in them. I suppose this is the true reason they don't work for me. Luckily, I have other patterns that I trust, and they get [00:10:00.014] the job done. My actual question is, have you experienced this with any of the classic hall-of-fame-type fly patterns? I know there will be a debate on which flies fall into that category, but I'll leave that up to you to decide."
Well, Ken, yeah, I don't quite understand your problem because I would not go anywhere trout fishing without a bunch of Pheasant Tail Nymphs in my box, beaded and unbeaded. I mostly fish the English style [00:10:30.245] without a big thorax and without legs, fairly slim. And it's my go-to fly. Honestly, if I'm gonna fish a nymph and I don't know what's going on, I'm probably gonna have a Pheasant Tail as one of the flies, if not two. So your problem, I think, is totally confidence, and I'll give a personal example, the Royal Wulff. I fish a lot of attractor dries, but I never fish a Royal Wulff. [00:11:00.034] I cannot buy a fish on a Royal Wulff, and I know it's a deadly fly. It's very effective for a lot of people. I think maybe it's because I don't like tying them. They're really difficult to tie. And I find that fly annoying to tie properly. And that may be why. But, again, when I put on a Royal Wulff, I have no confidence in it, and I never catch fish on them. So I think that it is a [00:11:30.154] confidence problem and nothing else. I would keep trying those Pheasant Tail Nymphs because you got some confidence in them, and eventually, they're gonna work. And I think most other anglers are going to agree with me that Pheasant Tail Nymph is one of the most deadly nymphs ever developed.
Here's one from Anthony. "I have an odd one, which might be too weird for the show." Anthony, nothing is too weird for this show. "My timetable is a bit different from all the ones I see elsewhere. I'm not good at sitting, so I built a standing table [00:12:00.274] by attaching a smooth door slab to the wall and adding two legs. It gives me tons of space to stretch out and make a mess. I am busy putting on a new top as it is dinged, scratched, and stained up. What color would you recommend for the tabletop of a fly-tying table? Is darker better or lighter? My eyes are going, so any suggestion to make things a bit easier on an old man is helpful."
Well, Anthony, in my opinion, and I think most people will agree with me, a lighter [00:12:30.500] table is going to be much better. You're gonna be able to see your materials better. And also, most people find that putting a white or a light background behind the fly helps them with seeing the fly a little bit better. I know that a lot of people will take a white piece of paper or a white card and put it in line with the fly behind their vice. So I think having a tabletop white would be great. The cool thing is [00:13:00.019] you're using an old door, so you can paint it white, paint it kind of a non-reflective white, a matte white, so it doesn't have a lot of reflections. And then, when it gets too dirty, you can just repaint it again. So, you know, a primer coat or just a dull white coat, I think, would be a great background for your tying table.
Stuart: Hi, Tom. Stuart from Scotland. I've got a very quick tip which may help one of your listeners [00:13:30.690] who dropped a voice note to you in the podcast regarding poetry. He was looking for a way to easily identify the fly line weights when he's got on reels and spools, etc. What I tend to do, because I use the same reel with multiple spools and some line weights can be from three up to six, is I actually use a black Sharpie, maybe about half a foot or a foot from [00:14:00.409] the loop end of the fly line and just put small lines representing the line weight. So, for instance, if it's a three weight, just put three small dots or small lines. And that way, you can just very quickly identify what weight your line is, and it doesn't make any difference to the trout. I hope not, anyway. Cheers. Bye.
Tom: Well, thank you, Stuart. That's a great idea, [00:14:30.029] and I still personally like putting it on the reel foot. As I said a couple of weeks ago, I just put whatever fly line is in the reel foot with a Sharpie. And then, if I happen to change lines on the reel, I can just remove that designation with a little alcohol and then write the new designation on it. But yours will work as well, and that's kind of an old-time method that people like Lefty Kreh used to use, [00:15:00.019] putting lines on their fly line. And, you know, you can develop a code or you can just do one line for a one, two lines for a two, and so on. Most lines these days have a line designation on them, but it's really hard to read. And sometimes, when the lines get old, they get faded. So another way of identifying lines without having to use a pair of magnifying glasses is a great idea.
Here's an email from Greg. [00:15:30.809] "This past week, I was fishing a pond in the North Maine woods. I have fished this pond before with great success. As I have experienced before in this pond, there was a hatch, and the fish were coming completely out of the water. If I am correct, this signifies they were chasing the emergers up and taking the emergers as they rose, propelling themselves out of the water. We caught one nice fish on a Golden Retriever and a second on a small greenish nymph fished under a stimulator. In the past, I've had success in this pond with a Maple Syrup [00:16:00.309] on a Depth Charge line, but that did not work this time. While the Golden Retriever and dry dropper worked, I wonder whether there is something else we could have tried. We are unable to see exactly what was hatching as the bugs were extremely small, kinda whitish in color.
Is there a generic emerger pattern that you would have tried? And importantly, how would you have fished it in a pond? I had both polyleaders and Depth Charge lines, so I could have gone deep. Another question, second question, how do you keep track of the leaders and tippets that you have [00:16:30.090] on a fly line? I find it frustrating to figure out what I had last on a reel when I pick it up to go out. Thank you for your time and effort that you put in your podcast. Without a doubt, I've become a better trout and smallmouth angler as a result of listening to your podcast and have been fly fishing for over 35 years."
Well, thank you, Greg. I don't really know what might have worked. In that pond, it sounds like the fish were taking midges. [00:17:00.044] And sometimes they will chase the adult midges. You know, it might look like an emerger. But midges, when they first hatch, will skitter across the top of the water. And those violent rises kinda indicate to me that the fish were relatively deep, and they saw something on the surface, and they chased it. You know, generally, when fish propel themselves out of the water, it's because they're coming from deeper water and their momentum kinda carries them through [00:17:30.085] the surface. So I would have tried maybe a little Griffith's Gnat or a small cream dry fly and moved it like you would a streamer or a nymph.
And then, you know, second, if that doesn't work, I would try some kind of emerger. I don't think of any particular pattern. It's probably more the way you're fishing it. But I would try a small emerger just under the surface or maybe even something [00:18:00.005] like a zebra midge just under the surface. The fish were obviously eating something small. You know, you saw something that were small and whitish in color. So, you know, I would stay with the floating polyleader on that and not going deep because the fish are obviously interested in something close to the surface. But, you know, the next time you go out, it may be a whole different story. But I would try those things and see if they work if you encounter it again. [00:18:30.525]
Hey, Greg. Regarding how I keep track of my leaders and tippets, you could, again, write it on the reel foot with a permanent marker because you can always erase that with a little bit of alcohol, alcohol pad, or lens cleaning pad, or something, and then change it. But honestly, the way I do it is I measure the leader against the rod so you know how long the rod is. And if you take the leader out of the rod and it's shorter than the rod, [00:19:00.144] it's probably, you know, six-, seven-and-a-half-foot leader. And if it's the same length as the rod, it's a nine-foot leader. And if it's longer than the rod, it's probably a 12- or 13- or 14-foot leader. So you can do it that way.
And then, regarding the tippet size, what I do is I just look at it, I look at the end where the tippet is, and then I guess at what the tippet size on there is. And then I hold it [00:19:30.315] against my tippet spools that are hanging from my sling bag, and I pull out a little length of each one. And I just match it to see what tippet that is. Of course, you could carry a micrometer if you want or a leader gauge, but it's really easy to eyeball it. So that's how I do it. I eyeball both the length of the leader and the tippet size, and that seems to work for me.
Next one is from Susan and her boyfriend, Chris, from North Carolina [00:20:00.214] near Asheville. "We enjoy your podcast, and you keep us company when we are in the car driving. In fact, many months ago, I was struggling with a Christmas gift for my fly fishing obsessed nephew, and you happened to suggest an Orvis carry-it-all bag, and he absolutely loves it. Thank you. My question involves Mother Nature-damaged rivers and how long it takes for them to bounce back. Specifically, here in Western North Carolina, we were decimated by flooding following Hurricane Helene. The rivers and creeks have far less trees. [00:20:30.095] They are wider and shallow. The fish habitats and fisheries were destroyed, and there's still debris in the water. What are your thoughts about how long before good fishing will return to our beautiful part of the country? Thank you for your informative podcast and for your answer to this question."
Well, Susan, I don't know, and I don't think anybody knows, how long it's gonna take those rivers to come back. I think that you're probably going to see the upper reaches [00:21:00.555] of the streams where they're up in the mountains and didn't have such devastating flooding, you know, didn't have such velocity. And the habitat is probably still relatively intact in those smaller streams. That's what I've observed when we've had severe flooding here in Vermont. The lower reaches of the rivers, you know, if the trees are gone and they're wider, it's gonna take a long time [00:21:30.089] for them to come back. It's gonna take a long time for the river to heal itself. And, of course, the water temps are probably gonna warm up because they're more exposed now.
I find that where people put machines in the river to straighten them and to widen them, you know, I think the mistaken idea that it's going to prevent future flooding, it usually doesn't work. But, you know, at the time, you're trying to [00:22:00.019] prevent loss of life and loss of properties, and it's about the only thing you can do. But I think that those places where they had machines in the river, backhoes and so on, it's gonna be a while. It's gonna be a long time. But they will come back. Rivers heal. Floods are a natural event. And, unfortunately, floods where humans have altered the habitat are always more destructive both to life and property and [00:22:30.359] to the rivers. And again, I don't have a good answer, but I think that you're probably gonna be better off going closer to the headwaters of all of these creeks and rivers.
Here's one from Connor. "Love the podcast. As I write this, I'm sitting on a rock in my favorite local fishing hole, a rather popular one on the Androscoggin, and I could use some help. I spent the last summer in Montana, doing pretty well catching trout. Since I've moved back to Maine, I've been absolutely skunked. I know we've been having a [00:23:00.000] bad weather year, but I can't help but think my fly fishing game has been negatively affected by the abundance of trout in the West. Any tips for upping my game in Maine? Nymphing, streamer fishing, and dry fly fishing have been fruitless here. I'm watching a solid caddis hatch right now, but I've seen no rises in the past two hours. Any advice? Thanks again."
Well, Connor, yeah, you know, that has been a problem throughout New England this season. I've caught very few trout in Vermont [00:23:30.059] because the weather's been pretty cool, and the rivers have been high. And the problem is that the fish are there, and they're still feeding. But when the surface velocity is really cranking, those fish are gonna be reluctant to respond to a hatch on the surface. You know, you need the rivers to drop in velocity and volume before you get good surface activity. And nymph and streamer fishing, it can work, [00:24:00.190] but the problem is, with that higher velocity in those higher waters, it's really tough to get your fly down to the fish. Hopefully, by the time you hear this, the weather has warmed up, the levels have dropped, and the fish will start responding to insects on the surface.
The only thing I can say in those situations is you need to find slower, shallower water where the fish might have moved in to feed. So, you know, fishing [00:24:30.210] pocket water and places like that and fast rapids is probably not the best bet. You need to really, really spend a lot of time walking and looking and driving for those slower pools where you might see a fish rise and you might be able to get your fly down to them without having it whisked away by the current. But again, it's been a tough spring, and I wouldn't worry about it. Yes, we have lower trout density in most eastern rivers, [00:25:00.490] but summer is coming, and it should get better.
Here's one from Don. "I have a few questions, one, about trout, and two, on smallmouth bass. I fish in the driftless area, which, as you know, means small streams and small hatches. Generally, what happens is a blue-winged olive hatch in the early evening. I will notice a few dozen tiny white mayflies. These are about a 22 to 24. There may or may not be rising fish, and if there are, it's small guys jumping out of the water. The hatch will last for 20 to 30 minutes, [00:25:30.109] but may happen again as I move upstream to a new area. I'm never sure what to do when this happens. I think trout are feeding, but anything near the size of the blue-winged olive is too small for me to see.
Should I be fishing a dry dropper with a small nymph, and if so, what, or a dry dropper trailing a wet hackle in the film or a larger dry fly that I can see? One of my local bass rivers is small with some holes but frequent areas of skinny water. I typically park and wade downstream for a couple of hours [00:26:00.210] and then back up to where I got in the water. I can also walk downstream and just fish upstream like I do with trout fishing. Is fishing only upstream a better strategy for smallies in littler rivers? It's easier to swing the streamers when fishing downstream.
My final question is how to approach handfish drop-offs. They're area where there will be a riffle or discrete drop-offs of a few feet. I generally stand at the top and either cast downstream and strip back to me or cast a streamer [00:26:30.380] lateral to me and swing it in the current. Over the years, both methods have been reproducibly unsuccessful. What are your thoughts here?"
Well, Don, regarding your first question, with those small flies, yeah, if the fish are on small flies, it's gonna be tough. If you're fishing a bigger fly, they're gonna key into a smaller fly, and you're gonna have to somehow get a smaller fly to them. So, you know, a larger dry fly [00:27:00.009] with a smaller dry behind it, a larger dry fly with a small nymph behind it, or an emerger, all of those things should work, you know, or your dry dropper trailing a soft tackle in the film, that can work. But, you know, I wouldn't worry so much about not seeing smaller flies because, honestly, even people with really good vision often don't see their small dry flies. You just have to [00:27:30.339] estimate about where your fly is and set the hook when you see a rise in the area. You're not gonna see those small flies all the time. So any of those things might work.
Regarding your local bass river, I would try fishing upstream. You know, when you're fishing downstream, you're often gonna spook fish before you get to them. And, yes, it's a little bit harder to fish upstream, but it can be very, very effective, particularly when the fish are eating crayfish and sculpins, [00:28:00.075] because when you're fishing upstream, you're stripping downstream. And the fly is coming downstream, and you want it to make little skips and hops. And that actually better imitates a sculpin or a crayfish that's been disturbed or is trying to get away because they can't swim upstream. They just don't have enough mass and enough muscle to move upstream, at least in the faster water. So it's a very effective way of fishing. And I would try both, but I think that fishing upstream, you might [00:28:30.265] actually find that you do better in a smallmouth river.
Now, regarding drop-offs, maybe the fact that you're standing on the drop-off might be your problem because the fish often will be just below where that riffle drops off into a pool. And they might be right there, right at the very lip, because there's an area of slower water underneath the riffle. There's [00:29:00.224] a little shelf they can sit on. And what I would do instead of fishing downstream from a shelf is I would get below the shelf and cast upstream and cast either your dry or your nymph or your streamer right into the shallow riffle above and let it tumble down into the drop-off. That's usually a better way of doing it than standing in the drop-off and fishing downstream. So I would give that a try and see if it helps. [00:29:30.144]
Here's one from Gary. "I just started fly fishing about a year ago and have been listening to this podcast almost daily. I've already learned so much from it and recommend it to everyone curious about fly fishing. I recently got a chance to go into an Orvis store in Roseville, California and got to try casting a Helios rod and was very impressed. I have listened to the podcast on different Orvis rods, but I had a question about Helios sizes and models. I primarily fish for trout in rivers and streams and currently have a nine-foot five-weight rod, [00:30:00.325] non-Orvis, and fish with nymphs and an indicator on it, as well as dry flies. I know you get what you pay for, so I don't mind saving for a Helios.
My questions are as follows. One, for fishing with nymphs and dry flies primarily, is the F or D series a better setup? I'm looking for a good overall rod. Two, is there much difference between the nine-foot five-weight and the nine-foot-five-inch five-weight? Can you still make casts at a distance with the nine-footer? I don't usually have to cast very far, [00:30:30.025] but sometimes I might and don't wanna limit myself. But I also know I will have situations where I'm doing shorter casts."
Well, Gary, I'm a big fan of the F models, and those are what I use almost exclusively for my trout fishing. I think the F is a little more versatile, and if you're going from a nymph rig to a dry fly, then the F, I think, is a better action, [00:31:00.275] better taper. The D series, if you were gonna fish lot of big rivers with a lot of wind and you were fishing streamers a lot or you're fishing dry flies at a really long distance, I would go with the D. But I think for day in and day out, most people, myself included, like the F series better. The F series is also better at shorter casts, and you said you make some shorter casts. So it's gonna flex better [00:31:30.109] on those shorter casts.
Regarding difference between a nine-foot and a nine-foot-five-inch, I love both of those rods, and I almost use them interchangeably. When I use a nine-foot-five-inch is where I'm fishing a bigger river, and I know I'm gonna have to make some big mends. And I think I get a little more distance with the nine-foot-five-inch. However, anytime a rod gets longer, you do sacrifice just [00:32:00.029] a bit, a tiny bit of accuracy. So if you're making mostly 30-, 40-, 50-foot casts, accurate casts, then I would go with the regular nine-footer. If you're fishing a lot of bigger rivers and you need to keep your rod high and keep your line off currents or you need to make bigger mends, I think the nine-foot-five-inch is better. But they're kinda interchangeable, and I don't think you'll be disappointed with either one. [00:32:30.049]
And finally, here is a listener taking me to task. This one's from Marshall. "I'm less than halfway through your latest podcast, 'The Poetry of Fly Fishing,' and I'm both aghast and saddened to hear your guest bashing bass fishermen and your agreement and chuckles when he does. I can't see how supporting the narrative that fly fishing is more pure or more difficult than bass fishing does anything at all to recruit fisher people or conservationists. [00:33:00.000] Beyond that, why would you and Orvis support and give a platform to such divisive and counterproductive speech when what we all, fly and gear anglers alike, want is clean water and healthy fish populations. In case you can't tell, I'm a proud bass fisherman. While I do it from a kayak, when the water warms up and creeks get low, I enjoy getting out and throwing big gaudy crankbaits, popping frogs, and Texas rig stickbaits just as much as I enjoy casting a dry to rising trout in the spring and fall. My point is [00:33:30.049] please do not buy into this narrative that other forms of fishing are somehow less than because we're all out there paying for licenses, supporting conservation through the Dingell-Johnson Act, and continuing our outdoor heritage that we treasure."
Well, Marshall, good point. And I haven't re-listened to the podcast, but if I chuckled at bashing bass anglers, my apologies because you're absolutely right. Now, there is a difference, [00:34:00.799] in general, between how fly anglers approach the water and how most bass anglers approach the water. You know, a lot of bass anglers, the ones we see most of the time anyways, are gunning big boats across the lake at 50 miles an hour and rushing from spot to spot. That's not the way most fly anglers wanna fish. However, there are lots of bass anglers like yourself who fish from a kayak and don't [00:34:30.400] fall into kind of that stereotypical bass angler. So my apologies to any bass anglers out there.
And you're absolutely right, there's nothing special about fly fishing. It's just another way of fishing, and it's the fishing that most people listening to this podcast enjoy best. But don't think you're any better than a bass angler. Actually, bass anglers are often a lot more scientific and know [00:35:00.170] a lot more about the habits and habitat of bass than fly anglers do. They know a lot more about water temperature and pH and the right depths to find fish. And honestly, the stuff I've learned about bass fishing in lakes, I mainly learned from conventional anglers, bass anglers, because they're better at it. So you're absolutely right. We're no better. It's a different way of fishing, [00:35:30.315] and none of us should be bashing bass anglers, or bait anglers for that matter, you know. Everybody is out there to have a good time. And again, I apologize to any bass anglers that we might have insulted.
All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Ivan about fishing for wild brown trout in Spain.
My guest today [00:36:00.324] is Ivan Tarin, and as he says, everyone from the U.S. calls him Ivan Tarin, right?
Ivan: Right.
Tom: And, you know, I tell people I'm going to Spain in September to host a trip with you, actually. And they say, "What are you going to fish for in Spain?" And I said, "Trout." They're actually [00:36:30.074] native there, and we're going trout fishing in Spain. So I want to talk a little bit about trout fishing in Spain and what it's like and what you have to offer there.
Ivan: Okay. Fly fishing in Spain started quite a few years ago. In fact, there are a couple of books that are about the 15th century talking about tying fly patters [00:37:00.164] and even talking about a conversation between an angler and a hunter in the Pyrenees and talking about the white butterfly, that is, a mayfly that hatch during the summer in the evening time. So it's not something new. And, of course, we had in the rivers, since the early days, native trout, two different basins. [00:37:30.070] One is coming from the Atlantic, and the other phenotype of the native trout is coming from the Mediterranean. That one is the native nicknamed zebra trout due to the forest stripes in its body. And that is going to be our main target species, regular browns and the specific Mediterranean zebra trout.
Tom: And they're both brown trout as we know them. Correct? [00:38:00.000]
Ivan: Correct.
Tom: And will we be able to catch both types when we're there? Is that common?
Ivan: Yes. Yes. The zebra trout is restricted to a few rivers that we know very well. In fact, we had specialized on that species for many years. I have been targeting and stalking [00:38:30.030] that species for many years because it's pretty different than the regular brown. It's usually faster and, in the water, is very hard to spot, very hard to stalk. And also, there are rainbows and a few brook trout populations in a few alpine lakes and creeks. And also, for those who are eager [00:39:00.219] to try challenging things, there is one, another native species called Iberian barbel that some people call Iberian bones due to the similarity with the saltwater bonefish. And also, those fish inhabit some of the lower stretches in the Pyrenees. And during September, it's still a good time for targeting them [00:39:30.469] on dry fly. So those are basically the different species we will be able to target during that week.
Tom: Oh, very interesting. So, are trout just restricted to the Pyrenees in Spain? Are there other places in Spain where you have native trout?
Ivan: Native trout is mostly all over [00:40:00.005] Spain. Also, the best populations for wild trout are in the northern part of Spain. And the zebra trout, we can find the best populations just more or less in the Pyrenees. But there are about five different mountain ranges in Spain, and all those mountain rivers has [00:40:30.394] good quality water, so are inhabited nowadays and forever by trout.
Tom: Oh, interesting. So tell me about fishing for your trout. What's it like? Do you have the mayfly and caddisfly and stoneflies? And do you do anything different than we would here in North America for fishing?
Ivan: After [00:41:00.000] all these years guiding Americans, I found many similarities between the trout fishing in North America and Spain, also between New Zealand trout fishing and Spain. So, to me, brown trout fly fishing has many similarities all over the world. So, yes, we are targeting them [00:41:30.000] with different imitations of insects, dry flies, nymphs, emergers, but also attractors, terrestrials, and streamers at certain moments, in certain places, also can work pretty well for the bigger guys.
Tom: And what size range are your insects there, [00:42:00.195] your hatches?
Ivan: Hatches, talking about September or talking in general?
Tom: In general. In general. Yeah.
Ivan: In general, yeah, we have mayflies, 10 to 12 size. For example, the Epeorus are big mayflies that hatch in some of the freestone rivers. [00:42:30.795] Also, we have the 10 size golden stoneflies for May. And once the season is starting to move forward, we have smaller mayflies, midges, and at the same time, we have the bigger terrestrials, I think, similar in the U.S.
Tom: Yeah. It sounds very similar. Interesting.
Ivan: Sorry, Tom. [00:43:00.085]
Tom: No. No. No problem. Interesting that, in both regions, the bigger mayflies seem to hatch earlier in the season, and the flies get smaller.
Ivan: At the early season, so talking about late February, March, and early April, we have the blue-winged olive hatch and also some midges. Then, [00:43:30.195] once we jump into May is when we find the golden stonefly hatch. And June and July is when we have the biggest mayflies in the alpine freestone rivers.
Tom: Right.
Ivan: And then, once we jump into summer, late summer, we have, of course, the bigger terrestrials and, again, some [00:44:00.164] smaller mayflies. So, yeah, we'll have different hatches in different rivers because in the area where we are located, there are a big difference between the lowland tailwater fisheries that can be at about 600 feet above the sea level to the alpine creeks or freestones [00:44:30.094] or even alpine lakes that might be up to 6,000 feet above sea level. So, like, you can imagine, there are many, many differences in the hatches that we are going to find.
Tom: Yeah. So you have tailwater fishing?
Ivan: Yep. We have, in Spain...the main electric system for Spain [00:45:00.099] is hydroelectric. So there are quite a few reservoirs that are releasing waters and creating some prolific tailwater fisheries in lowland areas where, probably 1,000 years ago, there were no trout, but nowadays, it's a cold water fishery inhabited by trout.
Tom: And is it like the states where the fish [00:45:30.130] in the mountain streams are much easier to catch than the fish in the tailwaters?
Ivan: Tailwaters, depending where you go. If you go to the most well-known tailwaters, the fish are more picky. But if you are off the beaten track, into specific sections or different tailwaters [00:46:00.869] than the ones that most of the people know, the fish are pretty different.
Tom: Okay.
Ivan: And in the alpine streams, the fish tend to be more aggressive, but at the same time, the native trout is not picky but is very sensitive to the drifts. So if you are doing good presentation, you are having lot of action. But if you [00:46:30.139] are doing a bad presentation in the first cast in a good place, sorry, that fish is already not spooked but is not eager to eat again when you do the second drift. So on one hand, the tailwaters are more challenging but allow you to make more casts into the same drifts, and in the alpine streams, [00:47:00.250] the fish, in theory, are easier but don't allow you to make many casts in the same drift. I don't know if I explained clearly or not.
Tom: No. Yeah, I understand. And it sounds like, hopefully, I won't have to make too many adjustments or Americans that are used to trout fishing here, it doesn't sound like we'll have to make too many adjustments in the way [00:47:30.030] we fish because that's very, very similar to what we see here.
Ivan: What I think is, you know, talking about fly fishing in the whole world, it's definitively more challenging than some of the North American fisheries.
Tom: Okay.
Ivan: That's my feeling.
Tom: Okay.
Ivan: On the other hand, [00:48:00.355] it's extremely rewarding. That's what we find every week when we guide Americans in these waters. It's a very rewarding fly fishing experience, definitively.
Tom: Great. And then, if someone were to come to Spain, let's say they were on vacation, and they didn't have a guide, [00:48:30.000] do you have public waters there where someone could just go and fish if they had a license, or is it all private like other parts of Europe?
Ivan: Most of the waters all over Spain are public, but there is a system of restricted access, kind of club waters, [00:49:00.264] what requires a daily and personal fishing permit per day. So some of those restricted access waters require that permit, and there is a limited number of permits per day, and sometimes just specific days per week, you can fish there. But still you have many public waters that, just with your license, you can go [00:49:30.094] and fish. But it's pretty tricky sometimes, the waters, even the rivers. One river could be a very good river, but not in every single section and not during every single part of the season.
Tom: Right. So it does pay to have a guide, obviously. In most parts of the world, it pays to have a guide to show you the best waters. [00:50:00.025] But if someone were there on vacation and wanted to spend a few hours fishing, they could do that.
Ivan: They could do that. Yeah, definitively.
Tom: Okay.
Ivan: There are thousands of miles of public water inhabited by trout in Spain, definitively.
Tom: Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. You don't hear that much about trout fishing in Spain. [00:50:30.045] At least here in the States, you don't hear much. And so it must be a little bit of a hidden secret to a lot of people.
Ivan: Spain, you know, is well-known by the beaches, the sun, the cities, like Madrid, Barcelona, San Sebastian, Sevilla. But [00:51:00.514] the rural Spain, what is probably 85% of the territory or even more, is not populated, is not well known, and has not been, never promoted by the government, even talking about rural tourism. I'm not talking about fly fishing because fly fishing is a very old thing in Spain, but very weird. Now, if you talk with someone and [00:51:30.204] you tell someone that you fly fish, they think you put a natural fly on the hook. People don't even know. Yeah.
Tom: Yeah, I hear it, too, sometimes. How do you get those flies on the hook?
Ivan: Yeah. So it's quite off the radar, definitively. And since [00:52:00.574] there are not the kind of private or controlled waters for tourisms like other countries have in Europe, this is kind of, yeah, off the radar, a little bit of a secret, and also a little bit, like I said before, a little bit tricky, you know, where, when, and how you fish these waters. That's why I was obsessed for my entire life, [00:52:32.639] for most of my life, doing this thing and trying to figure out how to catch the fish that I always thought should be in the rivers. And finally, after quite a few years, I found some of them. Not all of them, of course, but some of them, definitively, yes.
Tom: Are there many guides in Spain? Are there many guiding operations for trout in Spain?
Ivan: So until [00:53:00.500] 2015 or 2016, legally established guides in Spain, there were eight in total.
Tom: Oh, wow.
Ivan: And seven were hired in my company. That was in 2016.
Tom: Wow.
Ivan: After 2016, more guides and outfitters appeared, [00:53:30.510] especially in the Pyrenees, due to the work, the job that, not just me, also Orvis has been doing, promoting the destination. So it was bringing more anglers from all over the world, especially from the U.S. and UK, and that's why other guides and outfitters are starting to operate in the region. [00:54:00.110] But still, nowadays, legally stablished must be no more than 15 or 25 fishing guides in all over Spain, I should say.
Tom: Wow. So, Ivan, tell me a little bit about the countryside there that you fish. What does it look like? Do you mainly wade? Do you fish from boats or rafts? What's [00:54:30.320] a day like fishing there?
Ivan: This is only walk and wade fishery. And the countryside, depending where you are located. If you are in the lowlands, it's pretty similar to certain Montana areas. No high peaks. [00:55:00.224] If you are in the midlands, it's starting to be dramatic scenery with cliffs and villages around and mountains. And if you go to the highlands, it's definitively one of the most beautiful and dramatic scenarios to fly fish all over the world. Even when you fly in those spectacular fly-outs in New Zealand, what you see there [00:55:30.914] is not...I'm not going to say it's better or worse, but it's at least as nice as the Pyrenees scenery when we are flying. It's absolutely impressive scenery with many, many rivers, streams, creeks, some spring creeks, and different forestry and elevation around.
Tom: And do you fly into some of these mountain rivers? [00:56:00.000]
Ivan: We like to fly yachts during summertime, that means from June till early October, into a few carefully selected waters in the High Pyrenees because those mostly are alpine lakes for getting clear water. If you want to hike there, you need three [00:56:30.244] to five hours hiking. So the choppers are a very good option to fly there when the weather conditions are the right ones because it's not a place for huge trout. It's not a place for the biggest fish in the Pyrenees, but those places are absolutely spectacular for lots of action sight fishing on dry fly. That's why we fly certain weeks.
Tom: Wow. And it sounds like from the description [00:57:00.045] that when people stay with you, they stay in a medieval village, a small village?
Ivan: One of the lodges we operate, in fact, the lodge where we are going to stay with you, Tom, is located in 80-habitant, tiny, cozy, [00:57:30.454] medieval village. And there is where we are going to be sleeping, and also, we are going to be having dinner every night, in a tiny private restaurant close by the lodge.
Tom: It sounds great. And I understand from my friend, Phil Monahan, who was there, I think, two years ago, that there are a lot of wild mushrooms around, [00:58:00.164] because that's something I'm interested in.
Ivan: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And especially this year, it's been one of the most rainy springs in the history of Spain. So, yes, there are lots of mushrooms all over.
Tom: Oh, you might find me wandering around in the woods during a fishing day then looking for mushrooms.
Ivan: Definitively. You can do that in certain [00:58:30.250] beach, for sure.
Tom: Yeah. Well, Ivan, that's a great overview of what fly fishing in Spain is like, and I'll bet a lot of the people listening to this podcast never knew there was trout fishing in Spain. And if they wanna find out about your operation, you are on the Orvis website. That's listed as Salvelinus, right?
Ivan: Right, [00:59:00.000] salvelinus.com. But the best way to find us is through Orvis Travel site because it's very easy to find in Orvis Travel, Spain, and there is where we are. That's the easiest way.
Tom: Right. And I know, I checked, and we have one more spot for one more angler. The trip is September 28th to October 4th. And, yeah, we have one more spot left. [00:59:30.260] So if someone's interested, they better get on the phone and call. So we've been talking to Ivan Tarin of salvelinus.com, fly fishing in Spain, which is something that sounds like more Americans should take advantage of, especially if they're there on vacation for other reasons. So, Ivan, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us today. [01:00:00.610]
Ivan: Thank you, Tom, for this opportunity to talk a little bit about the fly fishing opportunities in this part of the world.
Tom: Yeah, I can't wait to see it. I'm very excited.
Ivan: Me, too. I think we are going to have a great, great week. Great people, great food and great accommodation is always warranted, and of course, great guides. So, yes, we need to see a little bit [01:00:30.139] about the weather and then ready to move around, because like I said, there are many waters, and even with bad weather, we always find some piece of water where we can have a great fishing day.
Tom: That sounds great. I'll pray for good weather.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at